Topic: Gender-specific crossdressing tags

Posted under Tag/Wiki Projects and Questions

dreamscreep

Member

What’s everyone’s opinion on adding gender-specific crossdressing tags like crossdressing_male and crossdressing_female? I mostly ask because it’s really difficult to find posts with crossdressing females. tomboy is full of non-crossdressing characters and tomboy crossdressing leads to crossdressing males with non-crossdressing tomboys. crossdressing female tomboy -male is the current search I use, but there’s not that many results and plenty of posts with crossdressing females are likely filtered out with that search. I think it would just make more sense to have gender-specific crossdressing tags so that it’s easier to find.

Manitka

Janitor

nin10dope said:
It's not an exact match but drag_king and drag_queen exist

i think those refer more to the whole culture of drag as entertainment, usually drag is highly performative and flamboyant compared to regular crossdressing.

dba afish

Member

manitka said:
i think those refer more to the whole culture of drag as entertainment, usually drag is highly performative and flamboyant compared to regular crossdressing.

also as the tags' wikis say, character don't necessarily need to be crossdressing for the tag to apply, as there are female drag queens and male drag kings.

or actually...
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maybe that would still be crossdressing...? I mean, if you think about it, since being a drag queen considered a thing for men, wouldn't that mean a woman drag queen would technically be breaking gender norms and therefore be crossdressing?

ehh... either way, it's not really a great solution to the problem posed. honestly, crossdressing probably should oughtta have male and female sub tags. it really is difficult to sort for either one, and it's not difficult to see why someone would want to, especially with one being way less common than the other. they're also kinda, y'know toally inverse situations.

Nin10dope

Blocked

manitka said:
i think those refer more to the whole culture of drag as entertainment, usually drag is highly performative and flamboyant compared to regular crossdressing.

That's why I said it's not an exact match
It's similar in concept, but it's true that they are separate from gender tags

spe

Admin

So, rather than having 6 different gender variants, how about something like:

crossdressing_femboy

- includes male, andromorph, maleherm
crossdressing_tomboy - includes female, gynomorph, herm

DonkDewd

Member

spe said:
So, rather than having 6 different gender variants, how about something like:

crossdressing_femboy

- includes male, andromorph, maleherm
crossdressing_tomboy - includes female, gynomorph, herm

I get what you're after, and I see the value in having only two tags, but I would prefer to not use the "tomboy" and "femboy" labels, myself. I think there are a lot of examples of (sometimes ironic) crossdressing males that present as masculine and are no one's idea of a "boy". It's an argument for another day, but the current practice of aliasing feminine_male to "femboy" is not ideal, so I'd vote against going further down that path.

dba afish

Member

spe said:
So, rather than having 6 different gender variants, how about something like:

crossdressing_femboy

- includes male, andromorph, maleherm
crossdressing_tomboy - includes female, gynomorph, herm

two problems: 1) a character dosn't necessarily need to fall under the femboy or tomboy description in order to crossdress, a man with a very masculine look/build or woman with very feminine look/build can wear clothes/styles ment for the other and 2) as I said in topic #55325 I'm still not certain I'm comfortable drawing the lines on what qualifies as crossdressing for intersex characters.

spe

Admin

donkdewd said:
I get what you're after, and I see the value in having only two tags, but I would prefer to not use the "tomboy" and "femboy" labels, myself. I think there are a lot of examples of (sometimes ironic) crossdressing males that present as masculine and are no one's idea of a "boy". It's an argument for another day, but the current practice of aliasing feminine_male to "femboy" is not ideal, so I'd vote against going further down that path.

I thought of that, but does anyone have a better name?

DonkDewd

Member

spe said:
I thought of that, but does anyone have a better name?

Masculine_Drag & Feminine_Drag, with Crossdressing_Female & Crossdressing_Male aliasing to them, respectively? Then adding implications for the existing tags Drag_King and Drag_Queen to each? With the aliases and implications, it might work, but I'd like to hear what others think.

dba afish

Member

spe said:
I thought of that, but does anyone have a better name?

something like masc-fem and fem-masc or masc_to_fem and fem_to_masc. I think this would be the first time we've ever used "masc" or "fem" as actual, like, tagwords or even in wikipages when grouping the two halves of the gender categories.

the issue I could see with this is the existing use of the prefix "fem-" in femboy might cause some confusion.

dba afish

Member

donkdewd said:
Masculine_Drag & Feminine_Drag, with Crossdressing_Female & Crossdressing_Male aliasing to them, respectively? Then adding implications for the existing tags Drag_King and Drag_Queen to each? With the aliases and implications, it might work, but I'd like to hear what others think.

as said earlier in the thread and those tags' wikis, it is possible to have female drag queens and male drag kings. also, with how the word "drag" feels like it's more used to refer specifically to drag_(fashion) I'm not so sure about the tag name using that.

DonkDewd

Member

dba_afish said:
as said earlier in the thread and those tags' wikis, it is possible to have female drag queens and male drag kings.

Yeah, but that's not a problem if you use Masculine_Drag and Feminine_Drag instead of Crossdressing_Male and Crossdressing_Female, right? A female in female drag is a female who is preforming femininity. A male drag king is performing masculinity. I think it works across gender.

DonkDewd

Member

dba_afish said:
something like masc-fem and fem-masc or masc_to_fem and fem_to_masc. I think this would be the first time we've ever used "masc" or "fem" as actual, like, tagwords or even in wikipages when grouping the two halves of the gender categories.

the issue I could see with this is the existing use of the prefix "fem-" in femboy might cause some confusion.

Wouldn't that get confused with Trans identities?

DonkDewd

Member

dba_afish said:
I meant those as a prefix to *_crossdressing

In that case, I think the three suggestions all solve the problem (including regsmutt's) and we should pick whichever term to lead the tag that people are mostly likely to reach for first - crossdressing, drag, or fem / masc. I think it makes more sense to start with "crossdressing" or "drag" than start with the gender, but that's just me.

dreamscreep

Member

donkdewd said:
In that case, I think the three suggestions all solve the problem (including regsmutt's) and we should pick whichever term to lead the tag that people are mostly likely to reach for first - crossdressing, drag, or fem / masc. I think it makes more sense to start with "crossdressing" or "drag" than start with the gender, but that's just me.

I’m certainly not against the tags beginning with crossdressing_*, but I think starting with the gender is more in line with existing tags, specifically the current formatting of crossgender tags. I think mtf_crossdressing and ftm_crossdressing with wiki pages explaining that m stands for masc and f stands for fem could work as a two-tag solution (masc_to_fem_crossdressing and vice versa are just needlessly long imo). I’m 100% against drag being used in crossdressing tags since it’s a separate thing with its own tags and that would just be confusing.

dba afish

Member

dreamscreep said:
I’m certainly not against the tags beginning with crossdressing_*, but I think starting with the gender is more in line with existing tags, specifically the current formatting of crossgender tags. I think mtf_crossdressing and ftm_crossdressing with wiki pages explaining that m stands for masc and f stands for fem could work as a two-tag solution (masc_to_fem_crossdressing and vice versa are just needlessly long imo). I’m 100% against drag being used in crossdressing tags since it’s a separate thing with its own tags and that would just be confusing.

mtf and ftm are already existing tag particles used in that have existing meaning, they're used to specifically mean "male-to-female" and "female-to-male" in regards to crossgender and transformation. if crossdressing could only apply to male or female characters these letters would be fine, if/when we decide how this tag works in regards to characters within the intersex categories it'd be potentially problematic.

dreamscreep

Member

dba_afish said:
mtf and ftm are already existing tag particles used in that have existing meaning, they're used to specifically mean "male-to-female" and "female-to-male" in regards to crossgender and transformation. if crossdressing could only apply to male or female characters these letters would be fine, if/when we decide how this tag works in regards to characters within the intersex categories it'd be potentially problematic.

Then I suppose masc_to_fem_crossdressing and fem_to_masc_crossdressing are the best options so far

DonkDewd

Member

dreamscreep said:
I’m certainly not against the tags beginning with crossdressing_*, but I think starting with the gender is more in line with existing tags, specifically the current formatting of crossgender tags. I think mtf_crossdressing and ftm_crossdressing with wiki pages explaining that m stands for masc and f stands for fem could work as a two-tag solution (masc_to_fem_crossdressing and vice versa are just needlessly long imo). I’m 100% against drag being used in crossdressing tags since it’s a separate thing with its own tags and that would just be confusing.

I take your point on drag - I guess I use that word more broadly than you and others seem to. On the other hand, I don't love mtf_crossdressing since I think we have more than two dozen cross-gender tags, and creating a mtf_crossdressing and ftm_crossdressing would actually *not* be in line with those existing tags, since here "m" would mean "masculine performance" and there "m" means "male gender". I get that you want to use the wiki pages to explain that distinction, but it seems inherently confusing and I think tagging generally goes smoother if there is no required reading first. I think crossdressing_feminine/masculine or the flipside is better (and I still think if you start the tag with "crossdressing", it is going to be used a lot more, since casual users will be reaching for that word when they are uploading / searching / editing).

regsmutt

Member

donkdewd said:
I take your point on drag - I guess I use that word more broadly than you and others seem to. On the other hand, I don't love mtf_crossdressing since I think we have more than two dozen cross-gender tags, and creating a mtf_crossdressing and ftm_crossdressing would actually *not* be in line with those existing tags, since here "m" would mean "masculine performance" and there "m" means "male gender". I get that you want to use the wiki pages to explain that distinction, but it seems inherently confusing and I think tagging generally goes smoother if there is no required reading first. I think crossdressing_feminine/masculine or the flipside is better (and I still think if you start the tag with "crossdressing", it is going to be used a lot more, since casual users will be reaching for that word when they are uploading / searching / editing).

My big problem with the format of crossdressing_feminine is that it sounds kind of ambiguous- is it 'a crossdressing feminine character' or 'crossdressing in a feminine expression'? If 'crossdressing' being the first word is important than a format like crossdressing_(masc-to-fem) might work.

DonkDewd

Member

regsmutt said:
My big problem with the format of crossdressing_feminine is that it sounds kind of ambiguous- is it 'a crossdressing feminine character' or 'crossdressing in a feminine expression'? If 'crossdressing' being the first word is important than a format like crossdressing_(masc-to-fem) might work.

That makes sense to me. It's got my vote.

dreamscreep

Member

regsmutt said:
If 'crossdressing' being the first word is important than a format like crossdressing_(masc-to-fem) might work.

I’m fine with this option if everyone else is

dreamscreep

Member

The bulk update request #11681 has been rejected.

create implication crossdressing_female (9) -> crossdressing (39973)
create implication crossdressing_andromorph (2) -> crossdressing_intersex (0)
create implication crossdressing_gynomorph (0) -> crossdressing_intersex (0)
create implication crossdressing_herm (0) -> crossdressing_intersex (0)
create implication crossdressing_maleherm (0) -> crossdressing_intersex (0)
create implication crossdressing_intersex (0) -> crossdressing (39973)

Reason: alternate solution with every gender-specific crossdressing tag (besides crossdressing_male, which still needs to be unaliased)

EDIT: The bulk update request #11681 (forum #459186) has been rejected by @dreamscreep.

Updated by auto moderator

DirtyDerg

Member

I mean, aside from 'femboy' + 'tomboy' and drag terms , there's not any established terms for intended expression...
So why not come up with some?

For masculine..
- Mascdressing
- Guydressing

For feminine..
- Femdressing
- Girldressing

For androgynous
- Androdressing
- Ambidressing (like ambiguous)
- Xdressing

I'm not the best at coming up with these sorts of things lol

There's also terms used by gender-fluid persons.. boy-mode and girl-mode. Those could be adapted somehow.. boy-moding and girl-moding.. idk what for androgynous

Updated

dreamscreep

Member

dirtyderg said:
I mean, aside from 'femboy' + 'tomboy' and drag terms , there's not any established terms for intended expression...
So why not come up with some?

For masculine..
- Mascdressing
- Guydressing

For feminine..
- Femdressing
- Girldressing

For androgynous
- Androdressing
- Ambidressing (like ambiguous)
- Xdressing

I'm not the best at coming up with these sorts of things lol

There's also terms used by gender-fluid persons.. boy-mode and girl-mode. Those could be adapted somehow.. boy-moding and girl-moding.. idk what for androgynous

I like femdressing and mascdressing a lot

DirtyDerg

Member

The bulk update request #11750 is pending approval.

create implication mascdressing (0) -> crossdressing (39973)
create implication femdressing (0) -> crossdressing (39973)
create alias femmedressing (0) -> femdressing (0)

Reason: Implications for the 'terms of intended gender expression of crossdressing' based on the examples I listed, or rather my preference of those terms.

At the very least, these could be used as placeholders until a more fitting term is made, or a more commonly used one.

Not including androgynous crossdressing because.. that's not really a thing now that I think of it. The most gender-neutral you can get with clothing is really just.. plain-colored, non-form fitting clothing.

regsmutt

Member

dirtyderg said:
The bulk update request #11750 is pending approval.

create implication mascdressing (0) -> crossdressing (39973)
create implication femdressing (0) -> crossdressing (39973)
create alias femmedressing (0) -> femdressing (0)

Reason: Implications for the 'terms of intended gender expression of crossdressing' based on the examples I listed, or rather my preference of those terms.

At the very least, these could be used as placeholders until a more fitting term is made, or a more commonly used one.

Not including androgynous crossdressing because.. that's not really a thing now that I think of it. The most gender-neutral you can get with clothing is really just.. plain-colored, non-form fitting clothing.

I'm not sold on these terms because they don't inherently sound like crossdressing. It sounds like 'wearing very gendered styles of clothing.'

spe

Admin

regsmutt said:
I'm not sold on these terms because they don't inherently sound like crossdressing. It sounds like 'wearing very gendered styles of clothing.'

They don't really sound like anything specific, to me. I mean, if I were a random user coming across this tag on a post, I could probably assume what it means by the contents of the post. And if not... I would read the wiki and that would explain it. Considering that these tags have never been used before and we would be inventing the terms for the first time that I'm aware of, I don't think anyone would get it confused with, like, females wearing feminine clothing.

This is actually a pretty succinct term and I rather like it. Much better than a lot of the previous suggestions, and not burdened with existing connotations.

dba afish

Member

spe said:
They don't really sound like anything specific, to me. I mean, if I were a random user coming across this tag on a post, I could probably assume what it means by the contents of the post. And if not... I would read the wiki and that would explain it. Considering that these tags have never been used before and we would be inventing the terms for the first time that I'm aware of, I don't think anyone would get it confused with, like, females wearing feminine clothing.

This is actually a pretty succinct term and I rather like it. Much better than a lot of the previous suggestions, and not burdened with existing connotations.

for terms that are supposed to be for this purpose specifically, I feel like they do have the issue of not exactly screaming "crossdressing" from their names alone. to me they kinda ring as just "character wearing an extremely/stereotypically feminine/masculine outfit" without the target character's gender coming into account.

DirtyDerg

Member

regsmutt said:
I'm not sold on these terms because they don't inherently sound like crossdressing. It sounds like 'wearing very gendered styles of clothing.'

dba_afish said:
they kinda ring as just "character wearing an extremely/stereotypically feminine/masculine outfit" without the target character's gender coming into account.

I mean, it doesn't exactly need to scream crossdressing, does it?

I don't think these terms would ever be used in a practical sense to describe someone wearing clothing that matched their gender.
I couldn't see anyone pointing to a guy in swim trunks and saying "he's mascdressing", because that's the expectation.

Side note: I've created some wikis that would hopefully get that point accross. mascdressing, femdressing

DonkDewd

Member

Sorry if I jumped the gun, but when I saw bulk update request #11386 was approved and the alias of crossdressing male to crossdressing was dropped, I added a lot of crossdressing_male and crossdressing_female tags last week. If we eventually alias those to better tags, that's great.

I mean, it doesn't exactly need to scream crossdressing, does it?

I like the terms mascdressing and femdressing since they are descriptive, inclusive, and clear. I think this was a good suggestion and I gave it some consideration, but ultimately, I do not think it is a better tag than crossdressing_(masc-to-fem) and its flip-side. I still think the tag needs to begin with "crossdressing", since that is the term casual users are going to reach for. I don't really understand while we would go with a tag that uses invented terms over one that starts with the word most people will be thinking of intuitively when they are looking for this content. Just my POV.