How should we tag this? Should a gynomorph be crossdressing if wearing feminine or masculine clothing? Would this need a "gender indetification" set of tags maybe?

honestly, I think it might be best to just avoid tagging intersex characters with crossdressing at all. I feel like it gets a bit hard to justify either direction sometimes, especially once you start talking about underwear and swimwear and the like.

dba_afish said:
honestly, I think it might be best to just avoid tagging intersex characters with crossdressing at all. I feel like it gets a bit hard to justify either direction sometimes, especially once you start talking about underwear and swimwear and the like.

How is it hard to justify? male/andromorph/maleherm are the three masculine genders, female/gynomorph/herm are the three feminine genders
If the character is so ambiguous you're questioning the crossdressing tag I'd argue you should reconsider the gender tag

donovan_dmc said:
How is it hard to justify? male/andromorph/maleherm are the three masculine genders, female/gynomorph/herm are the three feminine genders
If the character is so ambiguous you're questioning the crossdressing tag I'd argue you should reconsider the gender tag

I dunno, like there are some pieces of clothing that aren't gendered for arbitrary stylistic reasons, but for more but for more ergonomic reasons.

like swimming_trunks, for example, are designed in such a way to accommodate a person with male genitals. so, while I feel like it'd be reasonable to tag a female character who's wearing them with crossdressing, I'm not sure that it makes sense to do the same for a gynomorph or herm character. I feel like, in order for something to be crossdressing it'd have to to be a statement about cultural norms, I'm not sure that I'd consider a character who's wearing clothes that are designed to fit their anatomy to be that.

dba_afish said:
I feel like, in order for something to be crossdressing it'd have to to be a statement about cultural norms, I'm not sure that I'd consider a character who's wearing clothes that are designed to fit their anatomy to be that.

I think thinking of it as transgressing cultural norms is a perfect reason for it to not have to do with genitals per se but instead being of a masc or fem gender.

dba_afish said:
I dunno, like there are some pieces of clothing that aren't gendered for arbitrary stylistic reasons, but for more but for more ergonomic reasons.

like swimming_trunks, for example, are designed in such a way to accommodate a person with male genitals. so, while I feel like it'd be reasonable to tag a female character who's wearing them with crossdressing, I'm not sure that it makes sense to do the same for a gynomorph or herm character. I feel like, in order for something to be crossdressing it'd have to to be a statement about cultural norms, I'm not sure that I'd consider a character who's wearing clothes that are designed to fit their anatomy to be that.

I get where you're coming from, but we wouldn't consider panties with a bulge pouch as non-crossdressing, I think the same applies here

donovan_dmc said:
I get where you're coming from, but we wouldn't consider panties with a bulge pouch as non-crossdressing, I think the same applies here

while that does kinda counter the closing statement, I don't think that's really analogous to the entire situation I outlined.

that's a piece of clothing that's designed specifically to invoke feminine aesthetic appearance while accommodating male anatomy.

but, in addition to that, your point here seems kind of askew to the one I was trying to argue. my point was against tagging characters within the intersex gender categories with crossdressing under certain circumstances. your statment seems to be in favor of tagging crossdressing on male characters who are wearing feminine clothes designed for males, which is not I would disagree with.

... unless you were saying that gynomorph characters wearing panties with a bulge pouch should be considered to be crossdressing because they'd be wearing a piece of clothing designed for a man. but I don't think that's what you were trying to say.

lllucky said:
How should we tag this? Should a gynomorph be crossdressing if wearing feminine or masculine clothing? Would this need a "gender indetification" set of tags maybe?

If a character with a beard, broad shoulders, and a sun dress is lifting the dress to show off his pussy, it's probably a crossdressing andromorph. Doesn't need to be too complicated, and tagging andro/gynomorphs wearing fem/masculine clothing is still good for facilitating searches.
We currently consider andromorphs/maleherms to be male for other purposes like mismatched sexual dimorphism, no reason we can't do the same here.

lafcadio said:
If a character with a beard, broad shoulders, and a sun dress is lifting the dress to show off his pussy, it's probably a crossdressing andromorph.

What about a character with a beard, broad shoulders, muscular, with huge breasts and a sun dress, is lifting the dress to show off his penis hanging out of panties, wouldn't be a crossdressing? Wouldn't be male or andromorph because of breasts, wouldn't be maleherm because of breasts and no pussy, wouldn't be female because of the penis.

watsit said:
What about a character with a beard, broad shoulders, muscular, with huge breasts and a sun dress, is lifting the dress to show off his penis hanging out of panties, wouldn't be a crossdressing? Wouldn't be male or andromorph because of breasts, wouldn't be maleherm because of breasts and no pussy, wouldn't be female because of the penis.

This is more a consequence of conflating beards/gynecomastia/"busty boys" with gynomorphs than it is an issue with feminine intersexes wearing feminine clothes.

lafcadio said:
This is more a consequence of conflating beards/gynecomastia/"busty boys" with gynomorphs than it is an issue with feminine intersexes wearing feminine clothes.

I think it's more an issue trying to fit intersex conditions into a male/female dichotomy regarding customary clothing. Intersex by definition fits in-between the male and female categorization, so trying to decide whether they "should" normally use male or female clothing (so as to tag when wearing the opposite) is inherently faulty. There are many ways for intersex to be depicted, too many to create tags for each. It seems to come down to whether a given character's body type "feels" (in)appropriate for the type of clothing irrespective of the genitals on display for intersex characters, despite the genitals+breasts being the primary factor for tagging sex. Either way, the fact that the select set of intersex tags e6 has is going to conflate different types of intersex bodies is a good argument for not assuming intersex tags should be treated as male/masculine or female/feminine, for other tags that depend on a character being customarily male or female.

watsit said:
I think it's more an issue trying to fit intersex conditions into a male/female dichotomy regarding customary clothing. Intersex by definition fits in-between the male and female categorization, so trying to decide whether they "should" normally use male or female clothing (so as to tag when wearing the opposite) is inherently faulty. There are many ways for intersex to be depicted, too many to create tags for each. It seems to come down to whether a given character's body type "feels" (in)appropriate for the type of clothing irrespective of the genitals on display for intersex characters, despite the genitals+breasts being the primary factor for tagging sex. Either way, the fact that the select set of intersex tags e6 has is going to conflate different types of intersex bodies is a good argument for not assuming intersex tags should be treated as male/masculine or female/feminine, for other tags that depend on a character being customarily male or female.

I would give you a length reply but that'd legitimize this. I think you're just wrong and I'm going to redirect you to my previous post.

watsit said:
I think it's more an issue trying to fit intersex conditions into a male/female dichotomy regarding customary clothing. Intersex by definition fits in-between the male and female categorization, so trying to decide whether they "should" normally use male or female clothing (so as to tag when wearing the opposite) is inherently faulty. There are many ways for intersex to be depicted, too many to create tags for each. It seems to come down to whether a given character's body type "feels" (in)appropriate for the type of clothing irrespective of the genitals on display for intersex characters, despite the genitals+breasts being the primary factor for tagging sex. Either way, the fact that the select set of intersex tags e6 has is going to conflate different types of intersex bodies is a good argument for not assuming intersex tags should be treated as male/masculine or female/feminine, for other tags that depend on a character being customarily male or female.

also, this^

I'm okay with the body type modifiers like femboy applying to some intersex since they're both in reference to a character's body shape and build. but in addition to my points above I'm not sure that I'm really comfortable dictating what is or isn't abnormal to wear for a bodytype that isn't (or at least isn't currently) part of the accepted cultural norm in the first place.

to be fair, the same could be said for the male and female gender tags.

what if you have a transgender woman with no boobs and a penis wearing feminine clothes? that would be tagged as crossdressing because shes a "male" (by e621 standards) character wearing womens clothes.

maybe it would be better if crossdressing was contextual, as in it needs justification in the drawing itself to be tagged that way, e.g. someone explicitly stating that something is crossdressing in the image itself like in post #5359478

then, if people were looking for, say, men wearing panties, they could just look up man_(lore) and/or male and panties. and if people were looking for something where crossdressing is a more explicit theme, they could search the crossdressing tag.

i think it would be difficult to avoid people mistagging things as crossdressing no matter what definition you chose because its a politically contentious term with a lot of baggage for gender nonconforming and trans people for all kinds.

furward_thinker said:
maybe it would be better if crossdressing was contextual, as in it needs justification in the drawing itself to be tagged that way, e.g. someone explicitly stating that something is crossdressing in the image itself like in post #5359478

That would likely run afoul of TWYS. Text is considered external information since text doesn't have to be truthful and it can be open to interpretation (especially when translating non-English text). If a character's apparent sex is not the final arbiter for determining crossdressing, it would create problems for male femboy crossdressing (a rather popular scenario), and as long as it is the final arbiter, this issue with intersex (non-male/female) characters dressed in traditionally male/female clothing being crossdressing or not will exist.

maybe crossdressing should be a lore tag?

male femboy crossdressing might be the most popular kind, but theres still a lot of people who are looking for a different kind of crossdressing who would be sidelined if the tag were to exclude intersex characters.

and if crossdressing, like gender, isnt something that can be TWYS, then why not make it a lore tag?

furward_thinker said:
maybe crossdressing should be a lore tag?

male femboy crossdressing might be the most popular kind, but theres still a lot of people who are looking for a different kind of crossdressing who would be sidelined if the tag were to exclude intersex characters.

and if crossdressing, like gender, isnt something that can be TWYS, then why not make it a lore tag?

I think crossdressing usually fits well within TWYS. I don't think this is necessary.

furward_thinker said:
maybe crossdressing should be a lore tag?

male femboy crossdressing might be the most popular kind, but theres still a lot of people who are looking for a different kind of crossdressing who would be sidelined if the tag were to exclude intersex characters.

and if crossdressing, like gender, isnt something that can be TWYS, then why not make it a lore tag?

What is with the insistence to make everything a lore tag lately..

Need people be reminded that the lore category is not a dumping ground for anything that even remotely goes against TWYS

of all the recent suggestions to move things to the lore category, this is one of the worst

furward_thinker said:

then, if people were looking for, say, men wearing panties, they could just look up man_(lore) and/or male and panties. and if people were looking for something where crossdressing is a more explicit theme, they could search the crossdressing tag.

male panties
male_(lore) panties
The ratio of posts which actually are males wearing panties is awfully low for my taste