The bulk update request #10768 is pending approval.

mass update defloration -> virgin
remove alias virginity_loss (0) -> defloration (843)
remove alias male_taking_female_virginity (1) -> defloration (843)
remove alias first_time_sex (5) -> defloration (843)
remove alias loss_of_virginity (0) -> defloration (843)
create alias male_virginity_loss (36) -> male_virgin (156)
create alias male_defloration (184) -> male_virgin (156)
create alias female_defloration (177) -> female_virgin (128)

Reason: defloration is redundant with virgin +sex, and the colloquial meaning is a hymen rupture, which results in many blood_from_pussy posts being mistagged with it.

alias virginity_loss -> virgin
alias male_taking_female_virginity -> female_virgin
alias first_time_sex -> virgin
alias loss_of_virginity -> virgin
alias defloration -> blood_from_pussy

See previous discussion at topic #54501.

I like this argument
If it gets accepted, someone will have to make a minor edit to the defloration wiki to echo the change that it is a hymen tear instead of virginity loss

One could then argue that there be a different tag for an actual hymen tear versus blood from the pussy for unrelated reasons

-1 for a very clear logical inconsistency. If defloration has occurred then the character is not a virgin so the virgin tag no longer applies.

kyiiel said:
-1 for a very clear logical inconsistency. If defloration has occurred then the character is not a virgin so the virgin tag no longer applies.

I find this argument overly pedantic. Many of the things people fetishize about virginity (inexperience, premature ejaculation, blood from pussy) are still relevant during the sex itself. Or from a usability angle, how many people searching virgin are actually going to be upset to find pictures of virgins having sex?

Keep in mind also that we recently increased the burden of proof required for the virgin and defloration tags, so defloration is currently only tagged if the character is stated or shown to be a virgin in the same post anyway.

If it gets accepted, someone will have to make a minor edit to the defloration wiki to echo the change that it is a hymen tear instead of virginity loss

I think ideally the page should just be wiped and turned into a redirect.

One could then argue that there be a different tag for an actual hymen tear versus blood from the pussy for unrelated reasons

Having combed through the entirety of the defloration tag, I think the number of posts that explicitly show vaginal bleeding to be the result of a hymen tear is too small to justify this. It also seems like a rather narrow use case.

beholding said:
Having combed through the entirety of the defloration tag, I think the number of posts that explicitly show vaginal bleeding to be the result of a hymen tear is too small to justify this. It also seems like a rather narrow use case.

Oh narrow absolutely
I'm not about to be that weirdo who would actually care but maybe someone would

Bumping because the result of this BUR will set significant precedent, so I'd rather it not fall through the cracks.

@Kyiiel, as the lone dissenting vote, do you have any further arguments you'd like to make?

beholding said:
@Kyiiel, as the lone dissenting vote, do you have any further arguments you'd like to make?

Yes, you completely changed the definition of the tag. Why? https://e621.net/wiki_page_versions/diff?otherpage=174456&thispage=39378&commit=Diff

You edit states that defloration does not mean hymen rupture, but it literally means exactly that: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/defloration

Surgeries are TWYK unless visible... so that warning shouldn't even be on there.

Easiest solution is to just alias hymen_rupture -> defloration

Then allow the virgin tag to be a special case that accepts dialog. It would also apply if the image contains defloration AND a previous instance of the same character before defloration.

or similar could then be used to filter out dialog virgins.

I'd prefer if we instead had stated_virginity and perhaps virginity_fetish to avoid twys issues

See also topic #54501

Colloquially, defloration also means loss of virginity, though as pointed out, the hymen breaking doesn't necessarily mean a character lost their virginity, nor does a loss of virginity result in a broken hymen. But a good number of posts tagged defloration do not show a ruptured hymen, more than half aren't even tagged with blood, suggesting many people use the tag to mean a loss of virginity rather than breaking the hymen. That first_time_sex, loss_of_virginity, male_taking_female_virginity, and virginity_loss are all aliased to defloration bares this out, that people don't tag defloration to mean a rupture hymen as per the dictionary definition, but rather the loss of virginity that may or may not result in "defloration".

kyiiel said:
Yes, you completely changed the definition of the tag. Why? https://e621.net/wiki_page_versions/diff?otherpage=174456&thispage=39378&commit=Diff

You edit states that defloration does not mean hymen rupture, but it literally means exactly that: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/defloration

Surgeries are TWYK unless visible... so that warning shouldn't even be on there.

the tag's use was largely used for all virginity loss not just the breaking of a hymen.

watsit said:
Colloquially, defloration also means loss of virginity, though as pointed out, the hymen breaking doesn't necessarily mean a character lost their virginity, nor does a loss of virginity result in a broken hymen. But a good number of posts tagged defloration do not show a ruptured hymen, more than half aren't even tagged with blood, suggesting many people use the tag to mean a loss of virginity rather than breaking the hymen. That first_time_sex, loss_of_virginity, male_taking_female_virginity, and virginity_loss are all aliased to defloration bares this out, that people don't tag defloration to mean a rupture hymen as per the dictionary definition, but rather the loss of virginity that may or may not result in "defloration".

Yeah, the previous definition was as such, and included the hymen breaking.

It does if it occurs during intercourse if you go by TWYS.

We really shouldn't equate broken hymens with virginity at all, but instead have the neutral hymen_breaking/broken_hymen and blood_from_pussy tags. In real life, most hymens only cover the edge of the vaginal opening, and are stretchy. They may not tear during sex, or they may tear from nonsexual (even nonpenetrative!) activities. Someone could have sex, it doesn't tear, then later they have rougher sex and it does. We shouldn't assume that blood or a broken hymen always equals virginity loss in fictional artwork, even if that's a common depiction.

wandering_spaniel said:
We really shouldn't equate broken hymens with virginity at all, but instead have the neutral hymen_breaking/broken_hymen and blood_from_pussy tags. In real life, most hymens only cover the edge of the vaginal opening, and are stretchy. They may not tear during sex, or they may tear from nonsexual (even nonpenetrative!) activities. Someone could have sex, it doesn't tear, then later they have rougher sex and it does. We shouldn't assume that blood or a broken hymen always equals virginity loss in fictional artwork, even if that's a common depiction.

Yep, I think the most common non sexual way to break it is horseback riding.

manitka said:
Yep, I think the most common non sexual way to break it is horseback riding.

there-- there's no way that's the most common, especially not in recent times... like, how many people are riding horses for this to even happen? it might be one of the most commonly sited ways, and it might be a really easy way for it to happen, but I cannot believe that it's plausible for it to be most common... right?

fuck, now I'm gonna have to look it up...

I'm not even sure what I'd need to search to find data on this.

dba_afish said:
there-- there's no way that's the most common, especially not in recent times... like, how many people are riding horses for this to even happen? it might be one of the most commonly sited ways, and it might be a really easy way for it to happen, but I cannot believe that it's plausible for it to be most common... right?

fuck, now I'm gonna have to look it up...

I'm not even sure what I'd need to search to find data on this.

might be because i'm from corn land and there's lots of farms near where I grew up, a lot of girls ride horses there.

i think gymnastics and stuff can also break it (such as doing the splits and all that,)

dba_afish said:
there-- there's no way that's the most common, especially not in recent times... like, how many people are riding horses for this to even happen? it might be one of the most commonly sited ways, and it might be a really easy way for it to happen, but I cannot believe that it's plausible for it to be most common... right?

fuck, now I'm gonna have to look it up...

I'm not even sure what I'd need to search to find data on this.

I'm guessing a bicycle is the most common way.

kyiiel said:
the hymen breaking doesn't necessarily mean a character lost their virginity

It does if it occurs during intercourse if you go by TWYS.

Yeah sorry Kyiiel, that just isn't true
Misconceptions shouldn't be acceptable even in TWYS

manitka said:
might be because i'm from corn land and there's lots of farms near where I grew up, a lot of girls ride horses there.

i think gymnastics and stuff can also break it (such as doing the splits and all that,)

Also Manitka is a horse-girl confirmed

kyiiel said:
Yes, you completely changed the definition of the tag. Why? https://e621.net/wiki_page_versions/diff?otherpage=174456&thispage=39378&commit=Diff

I did that following discussion in topic #54501 where the community overwhelmingly supported separating hymen rupture from virginity, for reasons others have explained in this thread.

wandering_spaniel said:
I'd prefer if we instead had stated_virginity and perhaps virginity_fetish to avoid twys issues

What do you mean? Would you prefer retiring the virgin and defloration tags entirely?

watsit said:
Colloquially, defloration also means loss of virginity, though as pointed out, the hymen breaking doesn't necessarily mean a character lost their virginity, nor does a loss of virginity result in a broken hymen. But a good number of posts tagged defloration do not show a ruptured hymen, more than half aren't even tagged with blood, suggesting many people use the tag to mean a loss of virginity rather than breaking the hymen. That first_time_sex, loss_of_virginity, male_taking_female_virginity, and virginity_loss are all aliased to defloration bares this out, that people don't tag defloration to mean a rupture hymen as per the dictionary definition, but rather the loss of virginity that may or may not result in "defloration".

Yeah, it's a mess. The official wiki description states it's meant to be loss of virginity, but a ton of posts (which I've since cleared of the defloration tag in accordance with the wiki definition) were tagged based on hymen rupture. The conflicting definitions are another reason why I'd like to just get rid of it. Would you prefer changing it to a disambiguation tag?

beholding said:
What do you mean? Would you prefer retiring the virgin and defloration tags entirely?

Yes

wandering_spaniel said:
Yes

You downvoted the suggestion to convert them to lore, though. If you mean you think the tag shouldn't exist in any form, I can't see the logic in that. Virginity is a major fetish and users should be able to search for it.

Also, I have to say, it is immensely frustrating to see my virginity-related suggestions get downvoted with the argument the virgin tag should be invalidated when I've still yet to see anyone put in a request to that effect after 3 months. Can you do that so we can actually resolve this debate, please?

The BUR as-is will not work - the lines execute in parallel (out of order), so you cannot mass update and alias a tag in the same BUR.

I also support retiring those tags, since they'd practically have to be lore which it seems isn't going to happen. However, just using blood_from_pussy won't really work with how much it's used for far more violent situations.

We do need tags for hymen rupture as well for when it's actively shown. Then there's cherry_popping too.

scth said:
The BUR as-is will not work - the lines execute in parallel (out of order), so you cannot mass update and alias a tag in the same BUR.

Noted. I've moved the alias to the followup BUR.

We do need tags for hymen rupture as well for when it's actively shown.

How often is it actively shown, though? If it's a popular enough fetish I don't object to creating a "hymen rupture" tag, but after combing the defloration tag I have to say it seems pretty rare.

beholding said:
You downvoted the suggestion to convert them to lore, though. If you mean you think the tag shouldn't exist in any form, I can't see the logic in that. Virginity is a major fetish and users should be able to search for it.

Yes, I don't think we need a plain virgin or virgin_(lore) tag at all (lore tags aren't a dumping ground for anything that doesn't fit twys). For virginity fetish images we'd have stated_virginity and virginity_fetish for when the character's virginity is relevant in the art
You can search descriptions btw for when it's not relevant in the art but the description does mention it: description:virgin

The bulk update request #10914 is pending approval.

change category virgin (1520) -> invalid
create alias stated_virginity_in_description (208) -> virgin (1520)
create alias male_virginity_loss (36) -> male (2750646)
create alias male_virgin (156) -> male (2750646)
create alias female_virgin (128) -> female (2771573)
remove alias first_time_sex (5) -> defloration (843)
remove alias loss_of_virginity (0) -> defloration (843)
remove alias male_taking_female_virginity (1) -> defloration (843)
remove alias virginity_loss (0) -> defloration (843)
create implication cherry_popping (48) -> virginity_symbolism (11)

Reason: Here's my proposed alternative, sorry Beholding. Please let me know if you see any issues with the BUR!
Alternatively, instead of invalidating virgin we could alias it and related tags to stated_virginity...?

My thought is that instead of separate tags for a virgin not having sex vs someone losing their virginity, virginity loss could be searched for with stated_virgin sex (or virginity_fetish + sex or whatever).
There is also the virginity_symbolism tag, which I'm not implying to anything since it could theoretically be used in like, a pictographics conversation where stated_virgin doesn't apply. (Like a character asking another if they're a virgin, and they say no).
I'm also not implying virginity_fetish to stated_virginity because characters could discuss their attraction to virgins without a stated virgin being shown

This is kind of a WIP since I'm pretty busy today and I know there's a lot of related tags! Virgin doesn't look like a word anymore...

Followup:

alias defloration -> virgin
alias loss_of_virginity -> virgin
alias male_taking_female_virginity -> male/female
alias virginity_loss -> virgin

Could maybe then update virgin -> stated_virginity

Removing the ability to directly search for a popular fetish on a porn website sounds wild to me.

I think TWYS is a great policy 90% of the time, but at a certain point you have to make your peace with the fact that there are popular tropes people want to search for that don't cleanly fit into it, especially considering that this website includes multi-page comics and stories and not just standalone art. If we carry this reasoning to its logical conclusion, we would also have to invalidate roleplay, crossgender, alternate_form, and probably a good chunk of rape, questionable_consent, role_reversal, and dom/sub. (Also incest, but that alone gets to be a lore tag for reasons I still don't understand.) I really don't see how that would do anything but hurt the site's usability.

or virgin_(lore) tag at all (lore tags aren't a dumping ground for anything that doesn't fit twys).

And this argument baffles me. It's not a "dumping ground", it's a legitimate fetish that many people clearly believe changes the context of how the image is viewed. If this wasn't true, we wouldn't have over 100 posts where it's solely mentioned in the description, or edit wars between people using it like a lore tag. There is demand for this.

create alias male_virgin -> male
create alias female_virgin -> female

I also don't think this is a good idea, for the same reasons we have gendered variants for similar tags. virgin +male does not get you solely male virgins and virgin +female does not get you solely female virgins. There is no way to adequately search for these concepts if you remove these combo tags.

wandering_spaniel said:
You can search descriptions btw for when it's not relevant in the art but the description does mention it: description:virgin

I had no idea that was a search option, so I'd wager most users don't either. It also doesn't always work, since descriptions might use different terms to describe virginity, like "first time".

create alias stated_virginity_in_description (177) -> virgin (1425)

If you are going to do this, this should be a mass update and not an alias, as stated_virginity_in_description shouldn't remain in the system at all.

I'll be bold enough to say that 99.999% of users on this site have no concept of searching for posts by description.
And Beholding is right in that there needs to be exceptions to TWYS for the purpose of serving the people, which is the primary goal of the website, not some overly literal, soulless repository.
This has approached the line of excessive legislation (god the fact that that word is being used to describe staff of a porn site is something else)

nin10dope said:
I'll be bold enough to say that 99.999% of users on this site have no concept of searching for posts by description.

There are 2,200,438 users total, 0.001% would be 22 people
I'm sure there's more than that, especially accounting for those unregistered.

And if they don't know, they can always be helped to learn how.

snpthecat said:
There are 2,200,438 users total, 0.001% would be 22 people
I'm sure there's more than that, especially accounting for those unregistered.

And if they don't know, they can always be helped to learn how.

Thank you for the literal semantics

I've updated the BUR to also retire male_defloration and female_defloration, which someone has created in the interim. Reminder that the longer this remains in limbo, the more these problems will compound as people do things like this.

I also have an additional argument for preserving virgin: Virginity can be shown through either stated_virginity or virginity_symbolism. An umbrella tag is justified to encompass both scenarios.

Defloration is such a gross word I'll be happy to see it go away.

regsmutt said:
Defloration is such a gross word I'll be happy to see it go away.

But you prefer removing the virgin tag entirely?