donovan_dmc said:
Balls is not offensive. It does not need to change.

You and i will never agree. On anything. It seems. But the offensiveness isnt the issue. Its the fact that balls is a nondescript word just like pussy was.

Balls should be changed. I tried to make an alias change request but it said one was already in the system.

Following up with pussy to vulva. People who search "balls" are looking for scrotums. Not the testicles themselves, nor pictures with soheres or sports balls.

Reason: currently theres a lot of situations where a character might have different genital configurations or a testicle is visible but not attached (such as in castration art) theres issues involved in the web of tags involved in this and foreskin tags as ive discussed in the past as well.

This is reflected additionally in the wiki for all balls tags as well already as well as many using the term already rather than "balls".

Balls do not need to change. The primary purpose of the pussy change was to remove the derogatory term, balls are not derogatory, that's it.

technical-grid said:
is the same situation gonna apply to balls -> testicles? It literally is a slang term as well after all?

I think, since the testicles are the internal part, scrotum would probably be the better choice. Though I can't really see this happening any time soon, this one took long enough. (This thread itself is new compared to how long this has been discussed)

dba_afish said:
personal anecdote, the vulgar connotation of pussy made it difficult to discuss it as well as the definitions of related tag in a serious setting

jelloponies said:
If the main reason is truly because the word itself is offensive then pussy_floss and pussyjob tags (along with some other) should definitely be changed as well.

This is definitely a problem I've felt many times, where I've felt unnecessarily obscene needing to say pussy even though it was the name of the tag. I think this also aligns a LOT better with the staff always saying "we're an art achive, not a porn website" - if I was in an art gallery and the guide described Gustave Courbet's L'Origine du monde as a "pussy" I would probably be weirded out. It wouldn't offend me personally, I have pretty thick skin, but it would be completely unprofessional behaviour for an art gallery.

While e621 is typically more porn-focused than a bricks-and-mortar art gallery, I still see it as an art gallery of sorts, and expect some level of professionalism from it. It's not hard to use real anatomical terms when those words exist and are widely used. You can have tasteful nudity, tagging those images as "pussy" or "cock" just feels needlessly obscene.

Slang for sexual acts is a tougher problem, often having either no formal name or a weird obscure one that nobody will use. I also doubt you can even have tasteful depiction of a "titfuck" or "pussyjob" so it doesn't seem entirely inappropriate to tag a post with it.

So in another thread it was pointed out that 'vagina' is going to be aliased to 'vulva.' My 2 cents is that I do not think this is a good move. With cutaways and internal views the vagina can be visible when there's no visible vulva.
post #5389725

regsmutt said:
So in another thread it was pointed out that 'vagina' is going to be aliased to 'vulva.' My 2 cents is that I do not think this is a good move. With cutaways and internal views the vagina can be visible when there's no visible vulva.
post #5389725

I think the vast majority of people that would tag vagina will mean vulva, and a disambiguation would just cause unnecessary messes. The vaginal_canal tag is clearer and less prone to misuse, just need to make sure people know it exists.

watsit said:
The vaginal_canal tag is clearer and less prone to misuse, just need to make sure people know it exists.

That's what Bearnaise told me too

demesejha said:
You and i will never agree. On anything. It seems. But the offensiveness isnt the issue. Its the fact that balls is a nondescript word just like pussy was.

Balls should be changed. I tried to make an alias change request but it said one was already in the system.

Following up with pussy to vulva. People who search "balls" are looking for scrotums. Not the testicles themselves, nor pictures with soheres or sports balls.

Reason: currently theres a lot of situations where a character might have different genital configurations or a testicle is visible but not attached (such as in castration art) theres issues involved in the web of tags involved in this and foreskin tags as ive discussed in the past as well.

This is reflected additionally in the wiki for all balls tags as well already as well as many using the term already rather than "balls".

Leave whatever grudges you have at the door, they aren't helping anyone here

The tag isn't nondescript, everyone knows what balls are, don't pretend like they don't

The only people I've ever heard use "testicles" or "scrotum" are medical professionals, and even they still know what balls are

They people using it for sports balls aren't going to be helped by changing the name, they will still get caught by the alias that would happen

Bottom line, it's inoffensive and not nondescript, there is no reason to change it

Why alias vagina to vulva?

Should forked_pussy be changed to something like forked_vagina or forked_vaginal_canal then?

I had a really hard time taggimg this post because it is a cloaca since everything is in one ring, but you can see the seperation between the vulva and anus. Along with that, you can see the vagina, and clitoris being forked like the penis of the same species.

I couldn't seem to find a tag for forked_clitoris, so I settled on hemiclitores. I couldn't find a tag for forked_pussy or anything like it either, which surprised me. I made the tag before seeing this forum.
post #5579632

jelloponies said:
Is the change only due to pussy being offensive or is it to have a better term to more accurately describe the different parts of the female genitalia?
I had a short discussion with some of the staff on 621 earlier and that was my understanding.

That would in my mind made it so that for example "scotum -> balls" should be unaliased but that's just my two cents.
If the main reason is truly because the word itself is offensive then pussy_floss and pussyjob tags (along with some other) should definitely be changed as well.

The change is primarily because vulva is a much more correct and precise term, and has some benefits such as explicitly excluding the internal vaginal canal, which pussy probably doesn’t, or may not… the actual definition is somewhat nebulous due to being slang. This allows us to tag individual parts of genital anatomy without ambiguity. The crudeness of the term was a secondary (but still important) reason for the change.

I wouldn’t be opposed to changing balls to something else, but that’s not as important as changing pussy. It’s not quite as crude, and doesn’t seem to interfere much with precision in tagging. However, changing a tag this big is a massive effort, and the decision to change pussy did not come lightly. balls might not be perfect, but I don’t see it being worth all the effort to change.

spe said:
However, changing a tag this big is a massive effort, and the decision to change pussy did not come lightly. balls might not be perfect, but I don’t see it being worth all the effort to change.

To put it into perspective, pussy had 970k posts last I remember, which at the last time I measured processed 270k posts/16 hours, that's ~58 hours of the servers churning away to process the alias

Balls on the other hand is larger, coming in at 1161k posts, which at the same rate would take nearly 70 hours to churn through

While comparatively it isnt that much more, it's subjecting the servers to another set of multiple days of endless processing, which is not something we should do regularly

donovan_dmc said:
Balls is not offensive. It does not need to change.

It's hard to tell what type of balls people talking about though. Balls as an object or as a part of a male.

Glad to see this finally go through, overall everything now seems to be aliased to more accurate and appropriate terms. I know it must have taken a lot of effort on part of the OP to track down all the tags, and from the staff to actually implement the change.

havened said:
It's hard to tell what type of balls people talking about though. Balls as an object or as a part of a male.

ʚ(ϵ⁰~⁰)϶ ...

I don't-- think that's an actual problem. balls has only been mistagged like this ~47 times in the past 13 years and in conversation, context clues should make it pretty clear what's being talked about.

dba_afish said:
context clues should make it pretty clear what's being talked about.

I literally said this exact sentence in my head while reading that forum post

havened said:
It's hard to tell what type of balls people talking about though. Balls as an object or as a part of a male.

Forgive me for assuming but would this be in reference to non-native English users? Because then I could believe that, especially if they use something like Google Translate because I have no idea if English -> Something is capable of deciding if balls means testicles or not.

spe said:
The change is primarily because vulva is a much more correct and precise term, and has some benefits such as explicitly excluding the internal vaginal canal, which pussy probably doesn’t, or may not… the actual definition is somewhat nebulous due to being slang. This allows us to tag individual parts of genital anatomy without ambiguity. The crudeness of the term was a secondary (but still important) reason for the change.

While My first thoughts on seeing the change and that there was apparently a big enough issue to warrant such a change is shocking. Was there really a big enough issue with misunderstanding to change years of community habit? after digging around with what I could find, the actual amount of users giving feedback on https://e621.net/forum_topics/46033 seems to have a rather small pool of user input that is of non staff posts. Im more just curious on the actual pool of feedback as I am sure a huge amount of users had no clue that this was even up for consideration.

Though I can appreciate more accurate correct terms once I overwrite years of habit. I am however curious if for such reasons redundant tags will be removed too. such as maleherm. as herm is already shorthand for a medical condition. then adding something like male leaning or female leaning tags. They could be added or even replace tomboys and or maleherm. and female leaning could replace femboy or other such tags.

masterfail said:
While My first thoughts on seeing the change and that there was apparently a big enough issue to warrant such a change is shocking. Was there really a big enough issue with misunderstanding to change years of community habit? after digging around with what I could find, the actual amount of users giving feedback on https://e621.net/forum_topics/46033 seems to have a rather small pool of user input that is of non staff posts. Im more just curious on the actual pool of feedback as I am sure a huge amount of users had no clue that this was even up for consideration.

there's no changing of habit here, the old tagnames will still work in searches and when adding tags. all that's changed is the tag's displayed name and, I guess by extension, how late it appears in places where stuff is sorted alphabetically, otherwise, no functionality has changed.

searching pussy still works and typing it in to the edit box does too, and that will continue to be true into the future. (the same will also be the case for all of the other related tags, once their BURs are sorted out.)

Just curious, since I'm a close watcher of that tag... it seems that, from everything posted within the last two months or so, only half of the posts that were tagged with pussy are tagged with vulva now. Has there been a mishap with the BUR, or was there a change in definition that I missed? Or is the process still ongoing maybe?

ecstatis said:
Just curious, since I'm a close watcher of that tag... it seems that, from everything posted within the last two months or so, only half of the posts that were tagged with pussy are tagged with vulva now. Has there been a mishap with the BUR, or was there a change in definition that I missed? Or is the process still ongoing maybe?

I'm sitting here trying to anticipate which tags need to be dealt with on exports to a different Booru, and that's a mighty good question. For any given tag, they have a choice of aliasing to existing tag, or to the new one used by e621. Well, they can also just have tons of nearly identical tags, but that's on them. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

ecstatis said:
Just curious, since I'm a close watcher of that tag... it seems that, from everything posted within the last two months or so, only half of the posts that were tagged with pussy are tagged with vulva now. Has there been a mishap with the BUR, or was there a change in definition that I missed? Or is the process still ongoing maybe?

Work in progress
It's a lot of data to be read and changed by the server

ecstatis said:
Just curious, since I'm a close watcher of that tag... it seems that, from everything posted within the last two months or so, only half of the posts that were tagged with pussy are tagged with vulva now. Has there been a mishap with the BUR, or was there a change in definition that I missed? Or is the process still ongoing maybe?

it would seem that there are posts that are in a kind of limbo state, where checking they had the tag removed without it being replaced. manually editing any of these posts will have the proper tag applied, this probably means they just haven't been processed yet.

you can see by refreshing this search every so often that there are still posts being processed. for now, I wouldn't worry about it. if there's still limbo posts after that's done then maybe.

ecstatis said:
Has there been a mishap with the BUR

There was a brief hiccup today, but I have resolved it.
The process is still ongoing, and is expected to continue for some time yet.

The easiest way to check on the progress is here: https://e621.net/tags/pussy
Once the number there reaches 0, we can move on to other aliases / implications.

cinder said:
There was a brief hiccup today, but I have resolved it.
The process is still ongoing, and is expected to continue for some time yet.

The easiest way to check on the progress is here: https://e621.net/tags/pussy
Once the number there reaches 0, we can move on to other aliases / implications.

By that do you mean just the pussy -> vulva alias specifically is done, or the first BUR itself

nin10dope said:
By that do you mean just the pussy -> vulva alias specifically is done, or the first BUR itself

The former.

Woof

cinder said:
There was a brief hiccup today, but I have resolved it.
The process is still ongoing, and is expected to continue for some time yet.

The easiest way to check on the progress is here: https://e621.net/tags/pussy
Once the number there reaches 0, we can move on to other aliases / implications.

Good to know, thanks for the update!

Approved then Rejected? Wassup with that Cinder?

nin10dope said:
Approved then Rejected? Wassup with that Cinder?

the alias is still active if you look at their wikis, the alias page seems to be stuck at "queued", though. probably something to do with that.

I see

I demand that they stop this initiative to eliminate the pussy tag. Well that would affect my muscle memory, because I want to write tags related to pussies, it turns out that the posts I'm looking for are not there. So I want you to revert these changes please.

14october said:
I demand that they stop this initiative to eliminate the pussy tag. Well that would affect my muscle memory, because I want to write tags related to pussies, it turns out that the posts I'm looking for are not there.

nothing has been "eliminated", you don't need to change any of your habits. nothing has changed, pussy still works as a tag just as it did before, the only difference is the name displayed in the tag list has changed.

14october said:
I demand that they stop this initiative to eliminate the pussy tag. Well that would affect my muscle memory, because I want to write tags related to pussies, it turns out that the posts I'm looking for are not there. So I want you to revert these changes please.

The many many pussy tags are still actively being converted
In due time, when it's all finished, you can resume using pussy tags and the website will work with them. The name change is, for the average user, completely visual

In regards to the balls debate, I do wonder if we ought to change cum to semen. It's not offensive, but it is very crude, much moreso than "balls".

beholding said:
In regards to the balls debate, I do wonder if we ought to change cum to semen. It's not offensive, but it is very crude, much moreso than "balls".

Lemme stop ya right there, son
No need to be hasty

What should be done with blood_from_pussy? Should we just go ahead and rename it to hymen_rupture as some have suggested, or rename it to blood_on_vulva or blood_in_vagina?

The bulk update request #11496 is pending approval.

remove implication blood_in_pussy (909) -> blood (51862)
remove implication blood_from_pussy (841) -> blood_in_pussy (909)

Reason:

alias blood_in_pussy -> blood_in_vagina
implicate blood_in_vagina -> blood

This one should be straightforward, at least. (It can wait until the main alias has finished processing.)

beholding said:
What should be done with blood_from_pussy? Should we just go ahead and rename it to hymen_rupture as some have suggested, or rename it to blood_on_vulva or blood_in_vagina?

Blood_from_vagina because it happens from within and is coming out
Like cum_from_vagina *
Just checked and this is correct

I appreciate the change. It always felt weird to have the correct term for male genitalia (penis) but not keep it consistent with female genitalia.

spe said:
The change is primarily because vulva is a much more correct and precise term, and has some benefits such as explicitly excluding the internal vaginal canal, which pussy probably doesn’t, or may not… the actual definition is somewhat nebulous due to being slang. This allows us to tag individual parts of genital anatomy without ambiguity. The crudeness of the term was a secondary (but still important) reason for the change.

I wouldn’t be opposed to changing balls to something else, but that’s not as important as changing pussy. It’s not quite as crude, and doesn’t seem to interfere much with precision in tagging. However, changing a tag this big is a massive effort, and the decision to change pussy did not come lightly. balls might not be perfect, but I don’t see it being worth all the effort to change.

Uh, one question. How are you going to add the new anatomical tags to the images that need it? There are too many by now, surely.

shiitake said:
Uh, one question. How are you going to add the new anatomical tags to the images that need it? There are too many by now, surely.

Any name changes in tags will be handled by aliases, which handle everything automatically in the background
Beyond that, new tags will be relegated to tag projects
Just because we have a large number of posts doesn't mean making changes is impossible, there are plenty of Privileged users that contribute to tag projects

Like during the The Great Cub Apocalypse where we established the then new young_<form> tags, I personally scripted ~120,000 additions of the tag

There's nearly 50 individual users with >100,000 post changes (with the top 11 each having >400,000)
https://e621.net/users?search[order]=post_update_count

These things aren't impossible, it just takes desire and manpower (both of which can be hard to come by, but that shouldn't stop us from making changes to benefit the site)

The upload wizard still needs to be updated.

> Rating
> Explicit tags include sex, pussy, penis, masturbation, fellatio, etc. (help)

Should be

> Rating
> Explicit tags include sex, vulva, penis, masturbation, fellatio, etc. (help)

aaronfranke said:
The upload wizard still needs to be updated.

> Rating
> Explicit tags include sex, pussy, penis, masturbation, fellatio, etc. (help)

Should be

> Rating
> Explicit tags include sex, vulva, penis, masturbation, fellatio, etc. (help)

This isn't something that can just be changed on the fly, those are hardcoded and someone needs to go PR that change

"It's time to destroy pussy." My god that is a fantastic title. 😂

Yah, I 100% agree. I remember WAY back in the day, there was a tag called cuntboy. This was later renamed to andromorph. A far less offensive and more technical correct term. Now obviously pussy is less offensive (or else we'd seen this change happen a decade ago), but the same principle applies.

The only thing I'll miss is the fun alliteration of penis & pussy. But that's a sacrifice I'll gladly deal with.