Posted under Tag Alias and Implication Suggestions
The bulk update request #8798 is pending approval.
change category full_version_at_paywall (235) -> meta
Reason: Should either be aliased into alternate_version_at_paywall or changed to meta. Mostly, this tag seems to be used for videos/comics that advertise a "full version" at the artist's patreon/substar/fanbox/etc.
Updated
Should this be aliased to better_version_at_paywall? The tags are very similar, and full versions without cuts are generally strictly better. Other aliases that would be worth considering are full_version_at_paysite, full_version_at_patreon, and (maybe) fvap for parity with the other bvap aliases.
song said:
Should this be aliased to better_version_at_paywall? The tags are very similar, and full versions without cuts are generally strictly better. Other aliases that would be worth considering are full_version_at_paysite, full_version_at_patreon, and (maybe) fvap for parity with the other bvap aliases.
According to the wiki for better_version_at_paywall, the tag applies if:
Which seems to be mostly about resolution and image quality, not necessarily whether the paywall has a "more complete" version. Maybe it'd be better to imply full_version_at_paywall to better_version_at_paywall.
pankino2002 said:
Which seems to be mostly about resolution and image quality, not necessarily whether the paywall has a "more complete" version. Maybe it'd be better to imply full_version_at_paywall to better_version_at_paywall.
Perhaps they should be aliased, and have better_version_at_paywall also include uncropped images and longer versions of videos. I don't think we need individual tags for exactly how the paywall version differs from the public one, since most people using the tag have an issue with their being a paywall version at all. Especially with artists that eventually release better (maybe or maybe not the full/"best") versions publicly after a while, micromanaging which *_version_at_paywall tags still apply to the original post weeks or months after the original public version is released would be a pain.
The bulk update request #8801 is pending approval.
create alias fvap (0) -> better_version_at_paywall (1329)
create alias full_version_at_paywall (235) -> better_version_at_paywall (1329)
Reason:
watsit said:
Perhaps they should be aliased, and have better_version_at_paywall also include uncropped images and longer versions of videos. I don't think we need individual tags for exactly how the paywall version differs from the public one, since most people using the tag have an issue with their being a paywall version at all. Especially with artists that eventually release better (maybe or maybe not the full/"best") versions publicly after a while, micromanaging which *_version_at_paywall tags still apply to the original post weeks or months after the original public version is released would be a pain.
For people who prefer this solution.
The bulk update request #8809 is pending approval.
create alias fvas (0) -> better_version_at_source (2634)
create alias full_version_at_source (3) -> better_version_at_source (2634)
Reason: For the sake of consistency, if BUR #8801 passes.
Bump! I think this should be looked at.
watsit said:
Perhaps they should be aliased, and have better_version_at_paywall also include uncropped images and longer versions of videos. I don't think we need individual tags for exactly how the paywall version differs from the public one, since most people using the tag have an issue with their being a paywall version at all. Especially with artists that eventually release better (maybe or maybe not the full/"best") versions publicly after a while, micromanaging which *_version_at_paywall tags still apply to the original post weeks or months after the original public version is released would be a pain.
I'd very much rather they stay separate tags.
Cropped content, and overly shortened animation snippets are rarely if ever worth it on their own, only serving as adverts.
They are previews, incomplete content. A tease that can build into a constant blueballing in the case of some artists, and well worth blacklisting so you don't have to worry about when (or if) the full release comes out, nor risk disappointment from the result not living up to the preview. You can simply take in full releases as they come.
"Low" res/quality content, by contrast, is complete and often has worth on it's own.
There is no waiting, you get to see right away whether you actually like the result and whether you want a closer look. Content with paywalled alts is often worth on it's own too.
I do not want to have to choose between missing out on good content simply because a 4K or nude version exists at some paywall, or the ability to blacklist 5 second previews of what should be a 3 minute animation. If anything, I think better_version_at_paywall should be renamed to something like "higher_quality_at_paywall", or higher_res or what have you, to further differentiate the concept of quality from the concept of completion. "Better" is just too ambiguous.
And as far as micromanaging previous teasers goes, I think it's a non-issue: people will already be editing those past posts adding parent-child relationships so it would cost nothing to also remove the paywall tag while you're at it.
In fact, I don't think full_version_at_paywall should ever be removed at all!
A public release won't prior previews any less incomplete than they were at the time of posting, and people already blacklisting those will still want to keep those blacklisted so they can skip straight to the full version. Perhaps the tag should be renamed to something that properly reflects the permanent qualities of the tagged piece and not it's (potentially) transient state. Or perhaps the preview tag should be used more extensively
swedenyes said:
Cropped content, and overly shortened animation snippets are rarely if ever worth it on their own, only serving as adverts.
They are previews, incomplete content. A tease that can build into a constant blueballing in the case of some artists, and well worth blacklisting so you don't have to worry about when (or if) the full release comes out, nor risk disappointment from the result not living up to the preview. You can simply take in full releases as they come.
e6 has quality standards, and only accepts posts when the image is good enough on its own regardless if it's cropped or some other kind of preview. People can also make images like that on purpose where there isn't a "complete" version, or the complete version is kept private (not publicly released, but not behind a paywall either), so you'd still get posts like that. There's functionally no difference between someone making a 5 second animation, and someone making a 60 second animation but makes a 5 second cut of it. It's still a 5 second animation either way, the only difference is you "know" there's a better/longer version you're not able to see. As it is, I know artists that release perfectly fine previews of paywalled content (not a tease or blueballing). Stuff like this:
post #5533951
where there is technically a better (uncensored) version on their patreon, but the censorship is the same as what you typically see from other Japanese artists. If you didn't know they had a patreon with an uncensored version, the image itself isn't any different from others of that kind.
swedenyes said:
If anything, I think better_version_at_paywall should be renamed to something like "higher_quality_at_paywall", or higher_res or what have you, to further differentiate the concept of quality from the concept of completion. "Better" is just too ambiguous.
So is "quality".
swedenyes said:
And as far as micromanaging previous teasers goes, I think it's a non-issue: people will already be editing those past posts adding parent-child relationships so it would cost nothing to also remove the paywall tag while you're at it.
Depending if it still applies or not. Public releases may still not be the best quality version, e.g. if the public preview is a 720p crop, the later public release is a 1440p uncropped version, but the paysite version is 4K with a bonus panel or two. Only the people with access to the pay version can verify which tags still apply.
swedenyes said:
In fact, I don't think full_version_at_paywall should ever be removed at all!
A public release won't prior previews any less incomplete than they were at the time of posting
Except the tags reflect the post as it is, not as it was at the time of posting. And tags like x_version_at_y only apply when that version isn't here. If someone posts an image where there's an alternate version at the source, for example, alternate_version_at_source is tagged as an indication that alternate version should be posted here if possible, Then if someone posts that alternate version here, that tag is supposed to be removed since that version can be seen here now, not be left on because the alternate version wasn't here when the original post was made.
swedenyes said:
Perhaps the tag should be renamed to something that properly reflects the permanent qualities of the tagged piece and not it's (potentially) transient state. Or perhaps the preview tag should be used more extensively
There are tags for cropped, preview, advertisement, etc. But they only apply when the image or animation is apparently so (e.g. if it says something like "Go to <paysite> to see the full version!" or "See more at <paysite>!"), not simply on the basis that you know the artist has a paysite where there's a better or longer version.
watsit said:
e6 has quality standards, and only accepts posts when the image is good enough on its own regardless if it's cropped or some other kind of preview. People can also make images like that on purpose where there isn't a "complete" version, or the complete version is kept private (not publicly released, but not behind a paywall either), so you'd still get posts like that. There's functionally no difference between someone making a 5 second animation, and someone making a 60 second animation but makes a 5 second cut of it. It's still a 5 second animation either way, the only difference is you "know" there's a better/longer version you're not able to see. As it is, I know artists that release perfectly fine previews of paywalled content (not a tease or blueballing). Stuff like this:
post #5533951
where there is technically a better (uncensored) version on their patreon, but the censorship is the same as what you typically see from other Japanese artists. If you didn't know they had a patreon with an uncensored version, the image itself isn't any different from others of that kind.
Yes, there are standards. There are also tags and blacklists, as is the point of the site, because there is plenty variance in likes and dislikes and in what exactly each user may consider tolerable at any point in time.
And I don't think either of us are stating anything novel there.
So let me clear things up regarding what I think may have been a misunderstanding here: If you were getting the impression I'm calling for some wholesale ban on posting previews to the site, rest assured it's not the case. (Personally I'd be quite lax as to what gets posted and what doesn't; and at any rate I think that's an issue best left to site owners, what they want to do with the site, and how much server space they can afford. But I digress). What I want, is to retain the ability to filter out content I've found to be annoying most of the time.
Sure, this will inevitably block some perfectly fine and worthwhile results, as would any other blacklist, and right now this risk of "false positives" so to say is an acceptable risk to me.
And that's the crux of the issue here: I do think full_version_at_paywall and better_version_at_paywall are perfectly capable of representing different peeves for different people, and that their separation serves a purpose. Merging the two through aliasing would raise the risk of good content being filtered out too high for my liking, rendering the resulting tag useless to me.
And I don't think it unreasonable to think I won't be alone in thinking this, though of course that remains to be proven through votes, that's what voting is for after all!
As a side note, I believe your example would actually be one of uncensored_at_paywall rather full_version_at_paywall. Not that that'd magically render your point null, nor is it a bad choice, actually. Hell, it is such a good enough parallel it can serve my own points too: I'm not one to care for censored versions much, but there are people who do. And they may well not really care the way I do about previews. So, there's another potential example for ways why people may dislike some x_version_at_paywall and be perfectly fine with others.
----
Moving on, onto the (somewhat) less relevant and more off-topic half of the discussion, which I think could well evolve into a separate thread of it's own:
watsit said:
swedenyes said:
...Except the tags reflect the post as it is, not as it was at the time of posting. And tags like x_version_at_y only apply when that version isn't here. If someone posts an image where there's an alternate version at the source, for example, alternate_version_at_source is tagged as an indication that alternate version should be posted here if possible, Then if someone posts that alternate version here, that tag is supposed to be removed since that version can be seen here now, not be left on because the alternate version wasn't here when the original post was made.
swedenyes said:
...There are tags for cropped, preview, advertisement, etc. But they only apply when the image or animation is apparently so (e.g. if it says something like "Go to <paysite> to see the full version!" or "See more at <paysite>!"), not simply on the basis that you know the artist has a paysite where there's a better or longer version.
I can see the sense in using it like that. ...Though, unlike alternate_version_at_source, I don't think the x_version_at_paywall are as good as they could be: the very first step requires that artists publicly release the paywalled versions, something they are well in their right to choose never to do so, so you can't just jump to the tail end of the list and expect to start seeing content that's been made public, you'd have to sift through the never to be made public content first, with no easy way to differentiate the two without checking... Something to muse on I suppose, likely with no easy solution. Anyway.
This does bring to light the need for a separation of concerns: Temporarily marking posts as potentially requiring maintenance (in the form of checking for public releases) for volunteers' sake, and permanently marking posts as promotional/cropped/snippeted/downscaled/censored versions for filtering purposes for users' sake.
Because, again, simply having the full version now available on site doesn't make previous teasers any less incomplete, producing what are for most intents and purposes annoying little duplicates on one's search results (as most users accidentally clicking on old previews will most likely navigate to the full_version child post soon as they realize one exists).
So, new tags, tag renaming to indicate permanent features or not ...or ensuring the appropriate existing tags like preview are being used - and these are meta tags, my understanding is that outside knowledge is welcome here, as exemplified by date tags like 6th_century_bc.
watsit said:
swedenyes said:
And as far as micromanaging previous teasers goes, I think it's a non-issue: people will already be editing those past posts adding parent-child relationships so it would cost nothing to also remove the paywall tag while you're at it.Depending if it still applies or not. Public releases may still not be the best quality version, e.g. if the public preview is a 720p crop, the later public release is a 1440p uncropped version, but the paysite version is 4K with a bonus panel or two. Only the people with access to the pay version can verify which tags still apply.
So, we take the artist's word, and only remove the relevant paywall tags. Namely the full_version_at_paywall. Again, doesn't seem that big of a deal.
And, were full_version_at_paywall and better_version_at_paywall to be merged, it seems to me the end result would be it'd rarely ever be removed precisely because it's harder to check for that. Practically achieving the tag permanence I've been talking about, as a somewhat indirect consequence rather than a directly codified intent - plus the main disadvantage I already covered in the first half of this comment.
watsit said:
swedenyes said:
I think better_version_at_paywall should be renamed to something like "higher_quality_at_paywall" [...] "Better" is just too ambiguous.So is "quality".
I am open to alternatives!
