The tag alias #57284 yae_(genshin_impact) -> yae_miko has been approved.

Reason: Yae is Miko's surname; Yae Miko being her full name. Yae comes first though, because in many Asian languages, the surname is said before the given name or "first name".

EDIT: The tag alias yae_(genshin_impact) -> yae_miko (forum #332302) has been approved by @gattonero2001.

first time requesting an alias and I goofed my first 2 posts. oops :p

ji'rina said:
first time requesting an alias and I goofed my first 2 posts. oops :p

I thought my eyes were screwing with me for a moment. Don't change the titles (if you were), they don't do anything to the current alias request. Don't hide your suggestions.
You would not be able to remove or edit them by yourself unless it was done through a Bulk Update Request (BUR).

ji'rina said:
Reason: Yae is Miko's surname; Yae Miko being her full name. Yae comes first though, because in many Asian languages, the surname is said before the given name or "first name".

Regardless of the character's language, in English the surname goes last and this is an English-speaking site, so the proper tag would be miko_yae.

watsit said:
Regardless of the character's language, in English the surname goes last and this is an English-speaking site, so the proper tag would be miko_yae.

Nah, in this case, Yae Miko is the proper way to write her name in English too. She isn't referred to as "Miko Yae" in the English version. https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Yae_Miko

applephrans said:
Nah, in this case, Yae Miko is the proper way to write her name in English too. She isn't referred to as "Miko Yae" in the English version. https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Yae_Miko

Looks like that's right. Miko or Guuji is her surname, they were given an English ordering in English translation.

Yae is still her surname and Miko is her first name. Her name still follows Japanese name ordering in English.

applephrans said:
Nah, in this case, Yae Miko is the proper way to write her name in English too. She isn't referred to as "Miko Yae" in the English version. https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Yae_Miko

applephrans said:
Yae is still her surname and Miko is her first name. Her name still follows Japanese name ordering in English.

The problem comes down to a preference on this site for English naming convention for characters (Name, Surname). So, for instance, Futatsuiwa_Mamizou would alias to Mamizou_Futatsuiwa (and it does).
Personally, I think that if the Japanese ordering is kept the same in the English translation that everyone is familiar with, the suggested alias isn't incorrect necessarily. It's kind of a gray area, though. It depends how strongly we are to adhere to the current naming conventions of character tags, or if this is an exception somehow.

applephrans said:
Yae is still her surname and Miko is her first name. Her name still follows Japanese name ordering in English.

If Miko is her first name and Yae is her last name, then her name in English is Miko Yae. That's how names are ordered in English (unless you do it like "Yae, Miko" although that style of writing a name is very formal and bureaucratic). If character names have last name first in the translation, that's just how the translation is done¹, but Miko is still her first name and Yae her last, making her name in proper English "Miko Yae". As such, making the tag "Yae Miko" is just going to cause confusion and make people think Yae is her first name. The fact that there's a tag yae_(genshin_impact) for her here already instead of miko_(genshin_impact) points to that.

¹ This kind of reminds me of some of the purity wars I've seen in translations, where you have some saying you need to change as little as possible even if it's not natural English². Like, if you have a character say "My name is Tanaka Yui. That's Yoshio, my brother," how is an English speaker going to understand what the characters' names are? They'll think it's Tanaka Yui and Yoshio Yui.

² And don't get me wrong. I do like "light translations" at times too that help the original dialog come through instead of a more localized one. But I also recognize I'm a bit of a weeb, and for more general audiences it's better to have something more natural to their native language, and not have that guy there to go "well, actually, in Japanese..."

watsit said:
If Miko is her first name and Yae is her last name, then her name in English is Miko Yae. That's how names are ordered in English (unless you do it like "Yae, Miko" although that style of writing a name is very formal and bureaucratic). If character names have last name first in the translation, that's just how the translation is done¹, but Miko is still her first name and Yae her last, making her name in proper English "Miko Yae". As such, making the tag "Yae Miko" is just going to cause confusion and make people think Yae is her first name. The fact that there's a tag yae_(genshin_impact) for her here already instead of miko_(genshin_impact) points to that.

Tagging her as Miko Yae would objectively be wrong. It would be like calling Tony Tony Chopper "Chopper Tony Tony" or Hatsune Miku "Miku Hatsune". I'm pretty sure official names override the English naming convention rules.

applephrans said:
Tagging her as Miko Yae would objectively be wrong. It would be like calling Tony Tony Chopper "Chopper Tony Tony" or Hatsune Miku "Miku Hatsune". I'm pretty sure official names override the English naming convention rules.

I don't think we have any set-in-stone rules relating to stuff like this, but I think we should follow the names given in official translations even if it doesn't follow English conventions. The order for Hatsune Miku's name was decided in topic #8140 (wow that's old) but the discussions back then were a lot less intensive than these days. Wikipedia uses Hatsune Miku and Yae Miko. (no article for Yae Miko, only mentioned in the plot section)

furrin_gok said:
Looks like that's right. Miko or Guuji is her surname, they were given an English ordering in English translation.

1. Guuji is her title. It's kind of like "head shrine maiden" or something to like that
2. The names of Inazuman characters follow Japanese name format (ie. Sangonomia Kokomi, Kujou Sara, Kujou Kamaji, Hiiragi Chisago, etc.) even in the English translations. So it only makes sense that Miko's surname is Yae.

applephrans said:
Tagging her as Miko Yae would objectively be wrong.

It would be proper English and accurate.

applephrans said:
It would be like calling Tony Tony Chopper "Chopper Tony Tony" or Hatsune Miku "Miku Hatsune".

Which ironically just goes to prove the point. I honestly thought her name was Hatsune (first/given name) Miku (last/surname), since that's how she's referred to in English. I've known of her for years, and this is the first I'm learning that I've had her name backwards the entire time.

applephrans said:
I'm pretty sure official names override the English naming convention rules.

It's even worse when it's inconsistent. Having some Japanese names be First Last, and others randomly be Last First, it will easily confuse people even when you're aware Japanese uses a different order than English, since you won't know which order a given name is in. The only people who'll know which names are backwards are the same people who'll know what the character's first name is already, meaning it won't matter for them if the first name is first, while it'll be confusing to everyone else if some names are randomly in reverse.

watsit said:
It would be proper English and accurate.

Even if it is "proper" English, it isn't accurate. The English version of the game says her name is Yae Miko. Calling her Miko Yae would be inaccurate as NO version of the game or any other official media calls her Miko Yae.

watsit said:
Which ironically just goes to prove the point. I honestly thought her name was Hatsune (first/given name) Miku (last/surname), since that's how she's referred to in English. I've known of her for years, and this is the first I'm learning that I've had her name backwards the entire time.

It's even worse when it's inconsistent. Having some Japanese names be First Last, and others randomly be Last First, it will easily confuse people even when you're aware Japanese uses a different order than English, since you won't know which order a given name is in. The only people who'll know which names are backwards are the same people who'll know what the character's first name is already, meaning it won't matter for them if the first name is first, while it'll be confusing to everyone else if some names are randomly in reverse.

At the end of the day, Yae Miko is a character in a Chinese game from a Japanese-inspired fantasy region that uses the Japanese naming system.

If I recall, the rule on the site is to use the character's official English name as the tag and if one isn't available, use {given name} {surname} instead. Her official English name is Yae Miko. And it's not even a sub vs dub thing. Every localization uses "Yae Miko"

applephrans said:
If I recall, the rule on the site is to use the character's official English name as the tag and if one isn't available

In the context of their full name. If they have a full name, use that name. If not, use whatever name they do have with an identifying suffix. And if they have nothing, make something up that best identifies them. That's not talking about keeping it ordered backwards like an official loose translation may or may not use. And in either case, I've shown that keeping it backwards is going to cause confusion, as those examples you quoted from me show, and as people here have already been confused:

furrin_gok said:
Looks like that's right. Miko or Guuji is her surname [...]

I don't really think it's e621's place to decide what will and won't confuse the users when it comes to the name of an established fictional character. Even if we did flip it around, there would still be confusion because our tag will be different from the official game, the wiki, the Wikipedia article, etc. There's no winning.

watsit said:
In the context of their full name. If they have a full name, use that name. If not, use whatever name they do have with an identifying suffix. And if they have nothing, make something up that best identifies them. That's not talking about keeping it ordered backwards like an official loose translation may or may not use. And in either case, I've shown that keeping it backwards is going to cause confusion, as those examples you quoted from me show, and as people here have already been confused:

An easy fix to this would be to make "miko_yae" another alias to this tag. Therefore the official name is the main tag, and if someone gets it mixed up, they still get what they're looking for. Closest thing to a win/win that I can think of.

faucet said:
I don't really think it's e621's place to decide what will and won't confuse the users when it comes to the name of an established fictional character. Even if we did flip it around, there would still be confusion because our tag will be different from the official game, the wiki, the Wikipedia article, etc. There's no winning.

That's where aliases help. If someone is more familiar with calling them 'yae_miko', then tagging or searching that will properly find 'miko_yae'. And people who simply know her name as Miko, with a last name like Yae, will use/see 'miko_yae'.

ji'rina said:
An easy fix to this would be to make "miko_yae" another alias to this tag.

Or the other way around. That way people who are really into the game and use the transliteration 'yae_miko' can still use that and get proper results, while 'miko_yae' is what people will see in the tag list and general English speakers will better understand as Miko=firstname and Yae=lastname. As opposed to confusing people into thinking Yae=firstname and Miko=lastname, as has happened in both this case and others.

watsit said:
That's where aliases help. If someone is more familiar with calling them 'yae_miko', then tagging or searching that will properly find 'miko_yae'. And people who simply know her name as Miko, with a last name like Yae, will use/see 'miko_yae'.

Or the other way around. That way people who are really into the game and use the transliteration 'yae_miko' can still use that and get proper results, while 'miko_yae' is what people will see in the tag list and general English speakers will better understand as Miko=firstname and Yae=lastname. As opposed to confusing people into thinking Yae=firstname and Miko=lastname, as has happened in both this case and others.

We shouldn't be renaming characters based on whether or not someone is confused by the name or not. We have their official English name and that's what we should use. We're not transliterating the name and we don't need to because the name is already given to us. We would literally be the only place on the internet calling her Miko Yae.

applephrans said:
We shouldn't be renaming characters based on whether or not someone is confused by the name or not.

We're not renaming characters. Miko is the character's first name, and Yae is her last name, and I'm not saying we should change that. On the contrary, keeping it reversed and confusing people into thinking her first name is Yae and last name is Miko would be attempting to change it.

applephrans said:
We're not transliterating the name

But you are. Her original name in her original language is "八重神子", alternatively written as "やえみこ", directly translates to (a literal translation) "Yae Miko". That's a transliteration. A proper English translation, accounting for how Japanese order their given and surnames compared to English, would be "Miko Yae".

And again, the fact that this is inconsistent with other Japanese-based named here will confuse people with which are first names and which are last. Imagine the artist Tsukune Minaga collaborating with Azuma Minatsu, drawing Yae Miko and Sakura Kinomoto. What are people to think of these artist and character names, and how to properly refer to them?

watsit said:
But you are. Her original name in her original language is "八重神子", alternatively written as "やえみこ", directly translates to (a literal translation) "Yae Miko". That's a transliteration. A proper English translation, accounting for how Japanese order their given and surnames compared to English, would be "Miko Yae".

We don't have to look at the original language because we have the official English version to use. If we have an official English name to use, then we don't need an English translation.

The fact that people may get confused on which name is their given name and which is their surname should not matter.

If people are going to get confused, then we should just add a clarification in wiki on which name is which.

But changing the order of her name to align with Western naming schemes even though we don't have to in this case would cause more problems than it claims to solve.

applephrans said:
We don't have to look at the original language because we have the official English version to use. If we have an official English name to use, then we don't need an English translation.

Li Showron would like a word. Official translations can change, there can be different official translations with varying levels of transliteration or localization. We have their current official name, and we can provide it in proper English for English-speakers to understand, as we are an English-speaking site.

applephrans said:
If people are going to get confused, then we should just add a clarification in wiki on which name is which.

Will people even know they're confused? If most Japanese names are Firstname Lastname, and a random handful are Lastname Firstname, people aren't going to realize it might be backwards if they aren't already familiar with the character. But even if they would be confused, people shouldn't have to read a wiki to understand a character's name in case it's randomly different. The only people that would have a problem with a character tag being Firstname_Lastname are people who already know the character's original name, but aside from some getting annoyed that it's in a different order, there won't be any misunderstanding with people who are unfamiliar with the game or those familiar with it. The only people that may be confused are people with a passing knowledge of the character name and are already confused over the character's name order.

In contrast, keeping the tags Lastname_Firstname may be fine for people who know the character already and pacify those who want a more pure transliteration, but everyone else suffers as people who have no idea about the character will mix up their first and last name, and people who have a passing familiarity will get the wrong impression of the correct order since other names here, including Japanese ones, have the first name first. It can also cause problems for other tags, since if an artist like tsukune minaga draws yae miko, people can get confused and think the artist's first name is Minaga and refer to them as such (which incidentally, the artist changed their name to Tsukune Minana after people got confused with the order of their previous name).

applephrans said:
But changing the order of her name to align with Western naming schemes even though we don't have to in this case would cause more problems than it claims to solve.

What problems, exactly? So far, the only counterargument is it's not how other places show their name. Not that we're changing the name (we are acknowledging/keeping given name=Miko and surname=Yae), just that it's shown differently and consistently with other names here. The only problem I can see arise from having the tag as miko_yae is some purists getting annoyed that we don't have the name in "the proper Japanese order", but they'll still know who it's referring to. We can have an yae_miko->miko_yae alias so people that mistakenly use last name first, or prefer to use the "official order", can with no loss in functionality. What other problems would it cause to have Firstname_Lastname that it's worth confusing people and having an inconsistent naming order?

watsit said:
We have their current official name, and we can provide it in proper English for English-speakers to understand, as we are an English-speaking site.

The point of having their current official name is that we don't need to change it to "proper English" because it already is. We're not translating or transliterating the name. Changing official names so other people can understand them better isn't for us to do, it's for whoever the creator of the piece of media is to do.

watsit said:
Will people even know they're confused? If most Japanese names are Firstname Lastname, and a random handful are Lastname Firstname, people aren't going to realize it might be backwards if they aren't already familiar with the character. But even if they would be confused, people shouldn't have to read a wiki to understand a character's name in case it's randomly different. The only people that would have a problem with a character tag being Firstname_Lastname are people who already know the character's original name, but aside from some getting annoyed that it's in a different order, there won't be any misunderstanding with people who are unfamiliar with the game or those familiar with it. The only people that may be confused are people with a passing knowledge of the character name and are already confused over the character's name order.

Whether or not someone understands a name is irrelevant. What matters is having an accurate name. We shouldn't even have to consider name order in this situation because the name is not given in Japanese or Chinese, it's given in English. And since it is given in English, that's the name we should use.

watsit said:
In contrast, keeping the tags Lastname_Firstname may be fine for people who know the character already and pacify those who want a more pure transliteration, but everyone else suffers as people who have no idea about the character will mix up their first and last name, and people who have a passing familiarity will get the wrong impression of the correct order since other names here, including Japanese ones, have the first name first. It can also cause problems for other tags, since if an artist like tsukune minaga draws yae miko, people can get confused and think the artist's first name is Minaga and refer to them as such (which incidentally, the artist changed their name to Tsukune Minana after people got confused with the order of their previous name).

Once again, since we're not transliterating the name, we shouldn't have to worry about the order or whether or not someone might be confused.

watsit said:
What problems, exactly? So far, the only counterargument is it's not how other places show their name. Not that we're changing the name (we are acknowledging/keeping given name=Miko and surname=Yae), just that it's shown differently and consistently with other names here. The only problem I can see arise from having the tag as miko_yae is some purists getting annoyed that we don't have the name in "the proper Japanese order", but they'll still know who it's referring to. We can have an yae_miko->miko_yae alias so people that mistakenly use last name first, or prefer to use the "official order", can with no loss in functionality. What other problems would it cause to have Firstname_Lastname that it's worth confusing people and having an inconsistent naming order?

Having the name being "yae miko" isn't having it in "the proper Japanese order". It's having it in the proper English order. Using last name first isn't a mistake, it's accurate since we're not transliterating the name.

applephrans said:
Whether or not someone understands a name is irrelevant.

What's the point of character name tags if people won't understand or can't trust the names that are tagged, and spread that distrust to other tags?

applephrans said:
Having the name being "yae miko" isn't having it in "the proper Japanese order". It's having it in the proper English order.

You're now saying Yae is her first/given name and Miko is her last/surname, which we know is not what you mean to say. You're speaking nonsense. How someone chooses to translate a game doesn't change the English language, which has the first name first.

And I notice you didn't mention any actual problems that would be caused by using miko_yae as the main tag. Are there any, beyond some people getting a little annoyed?

watsit said:
What's the point of character name tags if people won't understand or can't trust the names that are tagged, and spread that distrust to other tags?

Having the name be "Miko Yae" would cause distrust because we would be the only ones using that order.

watsit said:
You're now saying Yae is her first/given name and Miko is her last/surname, which we know is not what you mean to say. You're speaking nonsense. How someone chooses to translate a game doesn't change the English language, which has the first name first.

The order given in official English media is the official order even if that order uses lastname firstname. Using "Miko Yae" is a fan translation and official translations overwrite that.

watsit said:
And I notice you didn't mention any actual problems that would be caused by using miko_yae as the main tag. Are there any, beyond some people getting a little annoyed?

There are no problems using yae_miko as the main tag because: 1. We are not translating the name and 2. That's the official English name.

If we were going to translate the name, it would be from Chinese anyway and it would be Bachong Shenzi, or Shenzi Bachong if you want to do firstname lastname. But this is irrelevant because we are given a name to use in English, which is Yae Miko.

The tag alias yae_(genshin_impact) -> yae_miko (forum #332302) has been approved by @gattonero2001.