dubsthefox said:
The:"character who would appear to be underage", part is kinda wrong, if teenager implies young.
And:"Often used to describe those under the apparent age of 13 as well as younger-looking teenagers.", is true, but can be misleading. Some people think one who is 18 is not a teen anymore.

I ask here, before changing anything. This wiki is rather dangerous to edit, in my opinion.

Teenager has been talked about before and I disagree with using it as reasoning to expand young outside its intended scope
I'd also like to point out that age chart in the young wiki wasn't added by staff.

magnuseffect said:
I'd also like to point out that age chart in the young wiki wasn't added by staff.

We're not going to get anywhere if we keep waiting for staff approval for everything. As you yourself have pointed out in one of the many previous threads, staff members have made it abundantly clear that they have no intention of doing anything that could be construed as them "promoting" cub content, short of not outright deleting it (yet). The fact that so far the only orange activity on this thread has been locking a different thread that duplicated it is no accident.

Unfortunately the one fix that really needs making is the creation of an adult_(lore) tag, which only staff are permitted to do. It may very well be worthwhile subdividing young into different age categories based on common consensus, but it won't solve the problem this thread was created to address.

(For my part, I'm in favour of replacing teenager with adolescent. Less open to interpretation and less lore-y.)

wat8548 said:
We're not going to get anywhere if we keep waiting for staff approval for everything. As you yourself have pointed out in one of the many previous threads, staff members have made it abundantly clear that they have no intention of doing anything that could be construed as them "promoting" cub content, short of not outright deleting it (yet). The fact that so far the only orange activity on this thread has been locking a different thread that duplicated it is no accident.

Unfortunately the one fix that really needs making is the creation of an adult_(lore) tag, which only staff are permitted to do. It may very well be worthwhile subdividing young into different age categories based on common consensus, but it won't solve the problem this thread was created to address.

(For my part, I'm in favour of replacing teenager with adolescent. Less open to interpretation and less lore-y.)

So the highest authority this discussion is every gonna get are privlidgeds huh? That sucks.

Unless, at somepoint a BUR is made, but this thread is basically still discussing on what that BUR is gonna be right.

I honestly do agree on age being just turned into lore tags, cub probably should be turned into a lore tag aswell, since honestly, with the whole TWYS system, we don't need what basically is a second "young" tag.

benjiboyo said:
I honestly do agree on age being just turned into lore tags, cub probably should be turned into a lore tag as well, since honestly, with the whole TWYS system, we don't need what basically is a second "young" tag.

Technically, as I understand it, cub is supposed to be a specific age group within young, akin to a pre-pubescent child. After all, although minors and considered young, adolescents aren't children.

wat8548 said:
(For my part, I'm in favour of replacing teenager with adolescent. Less open to interpretation and less lore-y.)

Agreed. Not all anthros age at the same rates as humans, plus ferals typically wouldn't. A character might be in their teens, but still be considered an adult by their world's standards. Another character might also be in their teens, but be considered to still be a toddler. However, adolescence is the actual stage of maturation between childhood and adulthood.

clawstripe said:
Technically, as I understand it, cub is supposed to be a specific age group within young, akin to a pre-pubescent child.

That's a colloquial usage that, as I understand, does not reflect tagging standard, and is represented in tagging only by the sheer weight of content posted or tagged by users holding that understanding.

wat8548 said:
(For my part, I'm in favour of replacing teenager with adolescent. Less open to interpretation and less lore-y.)

clawstripe said:
However, adolescence is the actual stage of maturation between childhood and adulthood.

eh... Teenager, as the name says, reaches from thirteen to nineteen. Adolescence reaches from 10 to 24

benjiboyo said:
I honestly do agree on age being just turned into lore tags

Lore tags should be supplemental. They are used to defining stuff, you can't see.

benjiboyo said:
...cub probably should be turned into a lore tag aswell, since honestly, with the whole TWYS system, we don't need what basically is a second "young" tag.

Cub = young + feral/anthro. It's a quality of life tag, so your tag string isn't 6+ tags long. Also, cub is a mixture of body form, what you can determine by looking at it, and age, what you might not determine by looking at it. I don't find it would fit into the lore tag category.

clawstripe said:
Technically, as I understand it, cub is supposed to be a specific age group within young, akin to a pre-pubescent child.

While most cubs are quite young (4-10, in human years), the phrase cub can refer to all physically immature and legally underage characters, ranging from infants, to underage teenagers.

benjiboyo said:
I honestly do agree on age being just turned into lore tags, cub probably should be turned into a lore tag aswell, since honestly, with the whole TWYS system, we don't need what basically is a second "young" tag.

we're not going to turn existing valid general tags into lore tags, _especially_ not the age related tags. doing that would remove the whole point of them existing, people blacklist young and cub and shit for a reason, changing them into lore tags would be catastrophic.

darryus said:
we're not going to turn existing valid general tags into lore tags, _especially_ not the age related tags. doing that would remove the whole point of them existing, people blacklist young and cub and shit for a reason, changing them into lore tags would be catastrophic.

dubsthefox said:

Cub = young + feral/anthro. It's a quality of life tag, so your tag string isn't 6+ tags long. Also, cub is a mixture of body form, what you can determine by looking at it, and age, what you might not determine by looking at it. I don't find it would fit into the lore tag category.

*headscratch* right... Heh, guess i'll shut up now. Can't really think of how contribute more... Sorry.
Best of lucks on a solution guys.

dubsthefox said:
Having in mind that the TWYS rule determines any tag (-lore/meta tags), this shouldn't be necessary. But linking the tag_what_you_see rule wouldn't hurt either.

I'm trying to at least somewhat mitigate the stigma artists might face by having their non-cub art tagged as cub without going against the site's policy. If there's no downside to putting up a disclaimer that literally just explains the site's policy, I think we should just go for it.

Like it or not, "cub" has a very strong definition in the furry community and it has ramifications.

(Also the "Adults rarely tagged as cub" message is back on the wiki page. Does it belong there or not?)

I'm pretty sure that line, "Adults that look young should rarely, if ever, be tagged young.", in the young wiki is referring to young adults, and not characters known to be adults, but look young. Believe it or not, you don't spontaneously metamorphose into looking like you're 40 once you turn 21, an adult can still look young whist very clearly looking like an adult. This is typically stuff like "baby face syndrome", or people who have young-looking faces whist having the proportions of adults, but can also be things like poor genetics, oddly smooth skin, lack of body hair, really anything that children would have, and adults typically don't.

When determining whether or not a character should get tagged young, body proportions are highly influential. The whole shortstack situation that I hear commonly: shortstacks have the proportions of an adult, and yet are short and stacked. Young characters can also be short and stacked, see oppai_loli, but have the proportions of whatever age category they fall under, so shortstack characters that have clearly fictional body proportions won't have consistent age tags (or the lack thereof) because the main way to determine young, is no longer viable.

And this is et cetera for the rest of the tag arguments, so if you can't seem to tell whether or not a character looks young: find some references of the human body in it's prepubescent, adult, and geriatric stages of life. Anthros follow a human body shape, with varying degrees of strictness, so those references will help you determine whether a tag should apply or not.

siral_exan said:
I'm pretty sure that line, "Adults that look young should rarely, if ever, be tagged young.", in the young wiki is referring to young adults, and not characters known to be adults, but look young.

That's not clear at all. Also, what could "Tag What You See" possibly refer to if not what a character looks like?

siral_exan said:
Believe it or not, you don't spontaneously metamorphose into looking like you're 40 once you turn 21, an adult can still look young whist very clearly looking like an adult.

And this website follows the same logic as the cashier when deciding whether or not to card you.

wat8548 said:
That's not clear at all. Also, what could "Tag What You See" possibly refer to if not what a character looks like?

And this website follows the same logic as the cashier when deciding whether or not to card you.

I'm 99% sure I'm not the person responsible for either of those problems. If you don't like how a wiki is written, then report it. If you don't like how a post is tagged or is not tagged, either add/remove the tags yourself or report it if you think it's enough of a problem. I'm not in control of either of those, apparently I'm the gatekeeper for "cub" artwork since I keep reminding users how our young tags work. And trust me, I don't like it either...

If you masturbate to a 'canonically adult' character that looks like Mametchi (Tamagotchi), you're probably a closet proshipper trying to avoid antis with, "Ackchyually".

If you're a staff member and you've been able to implement tags like 'trans male (lore)', there's no excuse not to implement 'adult (lore)'.

setgrdgftgrd said:
...there's no excuse not to implement 'adult (lore)'.

I was talking to an admin about that. He said the admins were talking about age_(lore) tags, but they couldn't get to an agreement on which terms to use. So, this is not impossible to happen.

Quote admin:"We've discussed the adult_(lore) and cub_(lore) tags among the stuff, but did not come to a conclusion that satisfies everyone yet."

dubsthefox said:
I was talking to an admin about that. He said the admins were talking about age_(lore) tags, but they couldn't get to an agreement on which terms to use. So, this is not impossible to happen.

Quote admin:"We've discussed the adult_(lore) and cub_(lore) tags among the stuff, but did not come to a conclusion that satisfies everyone yet."

That was a fast and effective response. Thank you for your service!

I mentioned this the last time I posted in this thread, and I honestly don't know how relevant it still is considering how far this thread has gotten into discussing lore tags, but don't tags like chibi and neoteny already do what SexyGriffon is suggesting? Hell, I think a lot of this art can even be covered under semi_anthro.

Artists relevant to this topic should be much less likely to be offended by these labels than anything with "cub" or "young" in the name, so why not encourage people posting art or editing posts with relevant character designs/artstyles to use these tags AND encourage people who still don't want to see those posts to add these tags to their blacklists? The only downside I see to this is that it could drag these terms down, in the public consciousness, to the level of controversy that cub sits at, causing my "the artists will be okay with it" argument less relevant with time. (I'm hoping this is just me overestimating e6's power to shape furry culture, though)

thelibertineyeen said:
I mentioned this the last time I posted in this thread, and I honestly don't know how relevant it still is considering how far this thread has gotten into discussing lore tags, but don't tags like chibi and neoteny already do what SexyGriffon is suggesting? Hell, I think a lot of this art can even be covered under semi_anthro.

Artists relevant to this topic should be much less likely to be offended by these labels than anything with "cub" or "young" in the name, so why not encourage people posting art or editing posts with relevant character designs/artstyles to use these tags AND encourage people who still don't want to see those posts to add these tags to their blacklists? The only downside I see to this is that it could drag these terms down, in the public consciousness, to the level of controversy that cub sits at, causing my "the artists will be okay with it" argument less relevant with time. (I'm hoping this is just me overestimating e6's power to shape furry culture, though)

Cub_(Lore)
Young_(Lore)
Adult_(Lore)

Adult is 18+ because pretty much the entire world agrees that this is the age of adulthood when it comes to internet porn. It doesn't need to be complicated.