Thirtyeight said:
I've got a question, since I'm still a bit fuzzy on how aliasing works. Until I have the new terms memorized, can I type in the old terms when tagging a new upload or will that cause problems?

That will work fine and cause no problems. You never actually need to use the new terms and the old terms will continue to work.

Thirtyeight said:
I've got a question, since I'm still a bit fuzzy on how aliasing works. Until I have the new terms memorized, can I type in the old terms when tagging a new upload or will that cause problems?

Yeah, for example: type in dickgirl, it'll show up in the tags/search as gynomorph.
Same goes for any tags like dickgirl/male or dickgirl_penetrating.

Edit: Ninja'd by Clawdragons.

Wow, I did not come in here expecting to agree with this. I thought alternative words would be much dumber than they ended up being. I like the new tags more, in fact.

Was there this big of a stink when we changed terms like "gay" to "male/male"?
The reaction is kinda ridonkulous, honestly.

You actively don't have to use the new terms. It doesn't effect you.
It doesn't effect me. It truly doesn't effect a lot of people.

The only people this effects, in any way, are those who will be happy with the terminology change. In which, great for them!
And if it's possible to make someone happy, without in any actual way hindering someone else, that's a good thing. Right?

The entitlement!

Esme_Belles said:
I for one find this a bit of a surprise, and a unwelcome surprise at that.
I have friends who would be considered a "gynomorph" and that term would be completely and utterly incorrect, not to mention offensive... Considering she is actually a woman with boy bits. Not a boy with breasts. And gynomorph means to look like a woman but be a man.

I knew this was going to happen the moment Nimmy posted:

NotMeNotYou said:
This is why we picked the tag, biological males (have a functioning penis and produce sperm) with an otherwise female body, and vise versa.

The problem now is the separation of sex and gender on e621, combined with the merging of sex and gender within colloquial language, versus the differing social separation of sex and gender.
e621 doesn't touch actual gender at all, which I've already seen a number of trans-identifying individuals agitated about before this tag change.

Prepare for this to cause even more outrage than cuntboy/dickgirl if e621 doesn't change its terminology from "gender" to "sex".
Then expect a whole lot more outrage from trans communities if it does

Zanazoth said:
Was there this big of a stink when we changed terms like "gay" to "male/male"?
The reaction is kinda ridonkulous, honestly.

You actively don't have to use the new terms. It doesn't effect you.
It doesn't effect me. It truly doesn't effect a lot of people.

The only people this effects, in any way, are those who will be happy with the terminology change. In which, great for them!
And if it's possible to make someone happy, without in any actual way hindering someone else, that's a good thing. Right?

The entitlement!

Except...if you actually read the thread, there's a bunch of trans people--the group of people that posters here are saying this change was made to be "nice" to--who find these terms as offensive or even more offensive than the previous tags. Defenders of this change like you are brushing off the fact that a lot of the people you think are made "happy" by this are obviously not happy about it and giving yourself a pat on the back for being a good ally over it.

So these new tags seem to be offensive to as many people as the old ones were, and additionally are confusing and unintuitive to a lot of people--which despite the aliases, is still a concern because the new tags are what show up in the tag lists. The only real "advantage" over the old tags is they don't have naughty words in them, which seems of dubious value at best, and certainly not worth all this trouble.

hanzai said:
So these new tags seem to be offensive to as many people as the old ones were

Woah, hold up a moment here. Where did that come from?

You know the people responding on this thread would not make up either a representative sample of the e621 userbase, or of trans* people as a whole either? In fact, we can very easily understand that it is almost certainly biased, because the only people coming to this thread are going to be those with strong opinions one way or another - and likely, people with strong negative emotions are more likely to come here to speak up (since there is a concrete reason to do so, in that they may hope to encourage the decision to be reverted).

The negative response to this thread doesn't qualify at all as evidence that any substantial proportion of people disagree with this change. If you want to make that claim, perhaps go to some trans* community and present them a poll of which set of labels they would prefer.

Mind you, that still wouldn't be perfect, but it would be a heck of a lot better, and probably good enough to get a general idea of things.

I'm generally trying to avoid arguments in this thread, and just trying to answer questions and such when I'm able, but I couldn't let this slip by. Not because of your position, but because of the horrible abuse of statistics.

Clawdragons said:
Woah, hold up a moment here. Where did that come from?

You know the people responding on this thread would not make up either a representative sample of the e621 userbase, or of trans* people as a whole either? In fact, we can very easily understand that it is almost certainly biased, because the only people coming to this thread are going to be those with strong opinions one way or another - and likely, people with strong negative emotions are more likely to come here to speak up (since there is a concrete reason to do so, in that they may hope to encourage the decision to be reverted).

The negative response to this thread doesn't qualify at all as evidence that any substantial proportion of people disagree with this change. If you want to make that claim, perhaps go to some trans* community and present them a poll of which set of labels they would prefer.

Mind you, that still wouldn't be perfect, but it would be a heck of a lot better, and probably good enough to get a general idea of things.

I'm generally trying to avoid arguments in this thread, and just trying to answer questions and such when I'm able, but I couldn't let this slip by. Not because of your position, but because of the horrible abuse of statistics.

I've been in this thread nigh the whole time and I don't care either way, I'm here for the tagging knowledge. Though they are right in the fact that as far as vocal people go (on e6) the distribution of people happy or angry about the tag is relative. Though neither is here nor there, as it isn't about people liking the old or the new, it's about making the site less vulgar.

Clawdragons said:
Woah, hold up a moment here. Where did that come from?

You know the people responding on this thread would not make up either a representative sample of the e621 userbase, or of trans* people as a whole either? In fact, we can very easily understand that it is almost certainly biased, because the only people coming to this thread are going to be those with strong opinions one way or another - and likely, people with strong negative emotions are more likely to come here to speak up (since there is a concrete reason to do so, in that they may hope to encourage the decision to be reverted).

The negative response to this thread doesn't qualify at all as evidence that any substantial proportion of people disagree with this change. If you want to make that claim, perhaps go to some trans* community and present them a poll of which set of labels they would prefer.

Mind you, that still wouldn't be perfect, but it would be a heck of a lot better, and probably good enough to get a general idea of things.

I'm generally trying to avoid arguments in this thread, and just trying to answer questions and such when I'm able, but I couldn't let this slip by. Not because of your position, but because of the horrible abuse of statistics.

None of the people supporting this on account of that have done any sort of polling either, yet me pointing out how many people are evidently offended by the new tags is the only thing that warrants getting a response like this over "horrible abuse of statistics" that you just "couldn't let slip by"? You can't ignore all the people making the same sort of comments from the other perspective and then act like my post alone is something special that uniquely deserves this sort of response.

hanzai said:

Except...if you actually read the thread, there's a bunch of trans people--the group of people that posters here are saying this change was made to be "nice" to--who find these terms as offensive or even more offensive than the previous tags. Defenders of this change like you are brushing off the fact that a lot of the people you think are made "happy" by this are obviously not happy about it and giving yourself a pat on the back for being a good ally over it.

So these new tags seem to be offensive to as many people as the old ones were, and additionally are confusing and unintuitive to a lot of people--which despite the aliases, is still a concern because the new tags are what show up in the tag lists. The only real "advantage" over the old tags is they don't have naughty words in them, which seems of dubious value at best, and certainly not worth all this trouble.

There's nothing that's going to make every person happy.

I also feel it's ironic to say that someone is ignoring a group's negative reactions while you also ignore all their positive reactions.

I think we can see that not every trans or genderfluid person, in this thread alone, 100% agrees on how the entire group feels about the change.

Ninosi said:
I also feel it's ironic to say that someone is ignoring a group's negative reactions while you also ignore all their positive reactions.

There's nothing ironic about you misreading my post. I didn't "ignore all their positive reactions", I said that from the reactions to this change, that as many people seemed offended by the new ones as were by the old ones. Implying that as some people didn't like the old tags, and some people liked the old tags, likewise some people don't like the new tags and some people do.

I think we can see that not every trans or genderfluid person, in this thread alone, 100% agrees on how the entire group feels about the change.

This is just agreeing with my post.

hanzai said:
There's nothing ironic about you misreading my post. I didn't "ignore all their positive reactions", I said that from the reactions to this change, that as many people seemed offended by the new ones as were by the old ones. Implying that as some people didn't like the old tags, and some people liked the old tags, likewise some people don't like the new tags and some people do.

Okay, you have a point. I did take your post the wrong way and I apologize.

Though I will say: the main reason for the change was to remove some vulgar terms, which also happened to be slurs, from the tags and replace them with more scientific terms. It was never to appeal to any group in the first place.

A lot of the tags have been switched to more scientific and precise terms recently, like all the species tags, so it's more like a consistency change.

I'll also say that there are probably better, more widely recognized terms to use, but gynomorph/andromorph will, most likely, eventually be more recognized because of how big e621 is.

So is "Gynomorph" literally just a new title for dickgirl or...

Porn_lives_matter said:
So is "Gynomorph" literally just a new title for dickgirl or...

yes

Why though?

Like honestly, why do we have to soften language? Words are meant to express something in a concise and understandable manner.

"Dickgirl" is good, it's clear and concise
"Gynomorph" sounds like some sort of alien that wants to pull my spine out my mouth through my throat.

This doesn't help anything, its just complicating things that don't need to be complicated.

hanzai said:
None of the people supporting this on account of that have done any sort of polling either, yet me pointing out how many people are evidently offended by the new tags is the only thing that warrants getting a response like this over "horrible abuse of statistics" that you just "couldn't let slip by"? You can't ignore all the people making the same sort of comments from the other perspective and then act like my post alone is something special that uniquely deserves this sort of response.

No one else that I've seen has made any statement about the proportion of people who think a certain way. Maybe I've missed them, but most of the time it's "I don't like this change" or "my friend doesn't like this change" or "I think this is great", with no greater statement about overall proportions.

There have been some hyperbolic "no one was offended by this" or "everyone should be happy" but those clearly aren't meant to be taken literally in the first place.

Now, of course, maybe I've missed some somewhere. I haven't followed the entire thread. But whether or not other people are wrong is irrelevant to the question of whether you were wrong, so I'm not particularly bothered by the chance that someone else might have also said something dumb.

JTwinleaf said:
Like honestly, why do we have to soften language? Words are meant to express something in a concise and understandable manner.

"Dickgirl" is good, it's clear and concise
"Gynomorph" sounds like some sort of alien that wants to pull my spine out my mouth through my throat.

This doesn't help anything, its just complicating things that don't need to be complicated.

you can still use the old tags, it's just a new shown name.

Versperus said:
you can still use the old tags, it's just a new shown name.

I know, I just don't understand what the hell is wrong with the way it was

JTwinleaf said:
I know, I just don't understand what the hell is wrong with the way it was

The old terms are vulgar slang words and that is againt the site's general tag standards.

oof jeez, I never knew some people would get so worked up about sexual fantasy.
I'm attracted to women with dicks in the fantasy world.

I've never once considered any of them trans, that brings with it too much real world baggage and complications. (as in I'm trying to escape reality)

Genuinely female body with dick, simple.

That being said I don't have a problem with all the actual trans characters that exist I can even name a few because their lore/story is pretty good.

I'm just not attracted to that.

I could probably self diagnose that the penis on the women represents a certain level of dominance (because of MY life experience) I find attractive, It has nothing to do with gender other than the fact I'm biologically attracted to women.

Please don't come at me with how I'm somehow bigoted because of MY fantasy. In the real world my two best friends are gay and I've had various LGBT acquaintances through them over the years.

JTwinleaf said:
I know, I just don't understand what the hell is wrong with the way it was

Because certain people latch onto these characters as an identity, and thus feel as if the tags "apply to them", and take certain ones as an insult. They don't (apply to "them"), it's just a means of searching up pics. As such labeling terms meant for fictional characters (trap falls into this too) as "slur" kinda diminishes the meaning of the term, but eh, we already got screechings of "alt right" here, so too late for that sentiment.

JTwinleaf said:
I know, I just don't understand what the hell is wrong with the way it was

You know, I wasn't expecting the core argument to be so succinctly cracked, pointed out, and questioned by someone with a Gengar cosplaying Patrick Star hammering a nail on his head, but here we are.

I think the beginning and end of this entire thread is simply that: what is the actual reason those two tags are being changed now? Especially since the words that are "replaced" just being aliased instead of removed.

Too vulgar? You mean the site is okay with sex involving, cub, scat, vomit, gore, oceans worth of semen, non-consentual sex, urine, and psychological torture, but the line is drawn over...two tags? Of text and not hundreds of thousands of images? Both made in the format of a word that is genital + gender? This is a furry porn site. We couldn't be more vulgar unless we tried. And oh we try.

So. It's obviously not vulgarity. And it's NOT about trans people, apperantly. And it's not about 'caving in". Then what is it about? Why now? What was the purpose of it? Why announce it in a thread? Why not just alias it and go on our merry ways? Why open this thread without disclosing the discussion that led to this decision? Nothing about this makes sense if you take the explanations given at face value.

Look, guys. Folks here just want fap material. I want to know, barring the excluded groups above, has an issue with it and why. Because this is just a weird, useless move on any front I can see.

CeladonSissy said:

You know, I wasn't expecting the core argument to be so succinctly cracked, pointed out, and questioned by someone with a Gengar cosplaying Patrick Star hammering a nail on his head, but here we are.

I think the beginning and end of this entire thread is simply that: what is the actual reason those two tags are being changed now? Especially since the words that are "replaced" just being aliased instead of removed.

Too vulgar? You mean the site is okay with sex involving, cub, scat, vomit, gore, oceans worth of semen, non-consentual sex, urine, and psychological torture, but the line is drawn over...two tags? Of text and not hundreds of thousands of images? Both made in the format of a word that is genital + gender? This is a furry porn site. We couldn't be more vulgar unless we tried. And oh we try.

So. It's obviously not vulgarity. And it's NOT about trans people, apperantly. And it's not about 'caving in". Then what is it about? Why now? What was the purpose of it? Why announce it in a thread? Why not just alias it and go on our merry ways? Why open this thread without disclosing the discussion that led to this decision? Nothing about this makes sense if you take the explanations given at face value.

Look, guys. Folks here just want fap material. I want to know, barring the excluded groups above, has an issue with it and why. Because this is just a weird, useless move on any front I can see.

There's a general clean-up of the tags going on from what I can tell, switching from slang terms to more scientific/precise terms.

Also the site hosts more than just porn. Safe, questionable, and explicit posts alike all have to share the same tags. Intersex tags do end up on safe posts from time to time.

CeladonSissy said:
You know, I wasn't expecting the core argument to be so succinctly cracked, pointed out, and questioned by someone with a Gengar cosplaying Patrick Star hammering a nail on his head, but here we are.

I think the beginning and end of this entire thread is simply that: what is the actual reason those two tags are being changed now? Especially since the words that are "replaced" just being aliased instead of removed.

Too vulgar? You mean the site is okay with sex involving, cub, scat, vomit, gore, oceans worth of semen, non-consentual sex, urine, and psychological torture, but the line is drawn over...two tags? Of text and not hundreds of thousands of images? Both made in the format of a word that is genital + gender? This is a furry porn site. We couldn't be more vulgar unless we tried. And oh we try.

So. It's obviously not vulgarity. And it's NOT about trans people, apperantly. And it's not about 'caving in". Then what is it about? Why now? What was the purpose of it? Why announce it in a thread? Why not just alias it and go on our merry ways? Why open this thread without disclosing the discussion that led to this decision? Nothing about this makes sense if you take the explanations given at face value.

Look, guys. Folks here just want fap material. I want to know, barring the excluded groups above, has an issue with it and why. Because this is just a weird, useless move on any front I can see.

You're overthinking this. Sometimes a blue curtain is really just a blue curtain.

NotMeNotYou said:
You're overthinking this. Sometimes a blue curtain is really just a blue curtain.

If anything, I'd say that the thread itself is overthinking it. Sometimes a curtain is a curtain, but sometimes that curtain is 10+ pages long.

Clearly this isn't "just" a tag alias. If it was, there wouldn't need to be a thread, it'd be a line in a change log somewhere. On top of that,the question of "Why bother?" hasn't really been answered. Heck, your answer is just kinda blowing me off even though I'm asking several questions. And if I can't get a straight answer from an Admin, I don't know where I would, honestly.

And if the reason for the thread's existence is this opaque, I don't think there will be any productive conversation here, as we've seen pages prior. This is supposed to be a discussion (in theory), but so far there's been arguing over semantics, different answers from different admins, and a general uproar.

What are we discussing? Keeping the tags? Ditching the tags? Changing the tags? The decision seems to be dead set as is, so I don't see why comments would be open in the first place. There really seems to be no common thread in this discussion in this, well, thread.

If you want to get meta, this whole thread is about if a blue curtain is a blue curtain. And this is the result of different people having different definitions of what is blue and what is a curtain. There's just no groundwork everyone can agree on. Which is why I'm wondering just what the heck is the groundwork was in the first place.

But my input? These new aliases are just awkward and decidedly not catchy. Heck, dickgirl and cuntboy became so pervasive with how straightforward and descriptive they were, to the point where it started applying to spaces outside of NSFW. The word alone tells you exactly what you're getting. But "gynomorph"? The heck is that? It's pretty much on the other side of the spectrum as is; it's awkward, clunky, hard to spell, and isn't easily parsed by the average user. These tags are being made to be dead on arrival, really. I guess they make for nice window dressing, at least?

If no one is going to be happy, might as well make the aliases simple. "MtF" and "FtM" may not always be accurate, but my word they're better than the new ones. Shorter than the "vulgar" tags, easy to remember, can be done in a single keystroke. Worked for the m/m and f/f aliases.

Ninosi said:
There's a general clean-up of the tags going on from what I can tell, switching from slang terms to more scientific/precise terms.

Also the site hosts more than just porn. Safe, questionable, and explicit posts alike all have to share the same tags. Intersex tags do end up on safe posts from time to time.

It hosts other kinds of content, indeed! But NSFW is the main draw. Look at how many tags are just straight up kink tags. How much better NSFW images score than NSFW ones. Saying people come for the non explicit stuff is as a convincing as saying "I just read Playboy for the articles". It may be true, but man good luck finding someone that believes you.

Ninosi said:

I feel like the new terms are distancing the tags away from gender for intersex characters altogether. We're only tagging the body type + genitals anyway and the new tags pretty much emphasize that.

But as others have already brought up. The new terms don't actually have anything to do with the whole point of/reason for the tags they are replacing. To describe a female with a penis and a male with a vagina! Not someone of a specific "form" which doesn't even denote the genital nature of the character.. i.e. The sole purpose of the tags to begin with!

The only reason dickgirl and cuntboy were conflated with trans to begin with is because trans, herm, dickgirl and cuntboy were all aliased to intersex under TWYS. This is what some people are repeatedly failing to comprehend. For all intents and purposes, there cannot be, and is no concept of "trans" (unless explicitly shown) or even gender, under TWYS. The unfortunately named "intersex" is NOT an umbrella term (here in this context) for trans, but an umbrella term for anything who's genitals don't match up with their visible body type/sex... full stop! It's like being listed under a specific nationality. Every nationality has it's own entry and details, but they all still fall (are listed) under the general category "nationality".

Dickgirl and cuntboy should normally never have had anything to do with trans tags unless stated. But TWYS means they do. We can't likely, or easily separate them under TWYS and while they are all together under "intersex", the term intersex doesn't refer to any specific thing, just a broad category of similar physical traits. Because of TWYS, it is not, nor was it ever about transgender in the first place. Some people are way to quick to try and make everything about themselves. That's the major problem I have with indulging these kinds of nontroversies to begin with. The whole issue is completely irrelevant to the site/TWYS as it is.

Also.. Again, just have to ask. What's wrong with "penisgirl" and "vaginaboy"? Not vulgar, nor do they have a perceived "history" working against them. Plus they are literally just as descriptive as the old terms without mixing in body form confusion or anything.

MagnusEffect said:
We've been antagonistic in the past so I want to preface this by stating I'm only trying to give analysis on what's going on.
I knew this was going to happen the moment Nimmy posted:
The problem now is the separation of sex and gender on e621, combined with the merging of sex and gender within colloquial language, versus the differing social separation of sex and gender.
e621 doesn't touch actual gender at all, which I've already seen a number of trans-identifying individuals agitated about before this tag change.

Prepare for this to cause even more outrage than cuntboy/dickgirl if e621 doesn't change its terminology from "gender" to "sex".
Then expect a whole lot more outrage from trans communities if it does

Sadly, all of this.

CeladonSissy said:
If anything, I'd say that the thread itself is overthinking it. Sometimes a curtain is a curtain, but sometimes that curtain is 10+ pages long.

Clearly this isn't "just" a tag alias. If it was, there wouldn't need to be a thread, it'd be a line in a change log somewhere. On top of that,the question of "Why bother?" hasn't really been answered. Heck, your answer is just kinda blowing me off even though I'm asking several questions. And if I can't get a straight answer from an Admin, I don't know where I would, honestly.

All those questions have been answered by myself beforehand, just in reply to other people. The news item exists because changing ~240 aliases and implications takes a while to process, during which time searching and blacklisting might not work properly. I estimated this would take 2-3 hours, in reality it took nearly 12 hours in total to get through everything.

The thread exists to explain the announcement in a bit more depth, introduce the new replacement tags, and give people a place to voice any questions or concerns without having these split up over potentially multiple threads which would be much harder to follow than a single one.

I also decided to have both an announcement thread and a news item in order to keep the news item short. The thread is also quite literally labeled [Announcement] and not [Discussion] on purpose, as this change will not be reversed.

CeladonSissy said:
But my input? These new aliases are just awkward and decidedly not catchy. Heck, dickgirl and cuntboy became so pervasive with how straightforward and descriptive they were, to the point where it started applying to spaces outside of NSFW. The word alone tells you exactly what you're getting. But "gynomorph"? The heck is that? It's pretty much on the other side of the spectrum as is; it's awkward, clunky, hard to spell, and isn't easily parsed by the average user. These tags are being made to be dead on arrival, really. I guess they make for nice window dressing, at least?

We're using "herm" which comes from hermaphrodite, which is just as Greek as gynomorph and andromorph.

CeladonSissy said:
But my input? These new aliases are just awkward and decidedly not catchy. Heck, dickgirl and cuntboy became so pervasive with how straightforward and descriptive they were, to the point where it started applying to spaces outside of NSFW. The word alone tells you exactly what you're getting. But "gynomorph"? The heck is that? It's pretty much on the other side of the spectrum as is; it's awkward, clunky, hard to spell, and isn't easily parsed by the average user. These tags are being made to be dead on arrival, really. I guess they make for nice window dressing, at least?

If no one is going to be happy, might as well make the aliases simple. "MtF" and "FtM" may not always be accurate, but my word they're better than the new ones. Shorter than the "vulgar" tags, easy to remember, can be done in a single keystroke. Worked for the m/m and f/f aliases.

The characters aren't trans, mtf and ftm make no sense in the context of our page.

I don’t have a strong opinion on this topic, but I’ll say that the term ‘gynomorph’ to me sounds like the character is being actively transformed into a female, which isn’t necessarily what a dickgirl is. The suffix ‘-morph’, typically meaning transformation from one thing to another, seems like an odd choice, since the character may not have undergone any physical transformation from birth. It just seems like an unintuitive and ambiguous term compared to the original, surely there must be a less ambiguous but still acceptable term? Something more literal like ‘feminine_with_penis’ and ‘masculine_with_vagina’ would be more obvious and not vulgar.

Daggett said:
I don’t have a strong opinion on this topic, but I’ll say that the term ‘gynomorph’ to me sounds like the character is being actively transformed into a female, which isn’t necessarily what a dickgirl is. The suffix ‘-morph’, typically meaning transformation from one thing to another, seems like an odd choice, since the character may not have undergone any physical transformation from birth. It just seems like an unintuitive and ambiguous term compared to the original, surely there must be a less ambiguous but still acceptable term? Something more literal like ‘feminine_with_penis’ and ‘masculine_with_vagina’ would be more obvious and not vulgar.

Tags like that have been proposed (including in this thread, if you want to look back and see some other responses to the idea), but first of all, those tags are pretty wordy, and that only gets worse when you consider tags using these terms.

feminine_with_penis/masculine_with_vagina
masculine_with_vagina_on_feral

And additionally, there can be issues of ambiguity, depending on how they are formed.

feminine_with_penis_penetrating

Tags like this become harder to understand.

There has been a lot of discussion of these tags, and from what I hear even more among the admins, so if it was easy to come up with a better solution, they'd have done so. There were a lot of suggestions thrown around by a lot of users, so don't think that this was a decision made without exploring alternatives.

Drkfce0 said:

But as others have already brought up. The new terms don't actually have anything to do with the whole point of/reason for the tags they are replacing. To describe a female with a penis and a male with a vagina! Not someone of a specific "form" which doesn't even denote the genital nature of the character.. i.e. The sole purpose of the tags to begin with!

The only reason dickgirl and cuntboy were conflated with trans to begin with is because trans, herm, dickgirl and cuntboy were all aliased to intersex under TWYS. This is what some people are repeatedly failing to comprehend. For all intents and purposes, there cannot be, and is no concept of "trans" (unless explicitly shown) or even gender, under TWYS. The unfortunately named "intersex" is NOT an umbrella term (here in this context) for trans, but an umbrella term for anything who's genitals don't match up with their visible body type/sex... full stop! It's like being listed under a specific nationality. Every nationality has it's own entry and details, but they all still fall (are listed) under the general category "nationality".

Dickgirl and cuntboy should normally never have had anything to do with trans tags unless stated. But TWYS means they do. We can't likely, or easily separate them under TWYS and while they are all together under "intersex", the term intersex doesn't refer to any specific thing, just a broad category of similar physical traits. Because of TWYS, it is not, nor was it ever about transgender in the first place. Some people are way to quick to try and make everything about themselves. That's the major problem I have with indulging these kinds of nontroversies to begin with. The whole issue is completely irrelevant to the site/TWYS as it is.

Also.. Again, just have to ask. What's wrong with "penisgirl" and "vaginaboy"? Not vulgar, nor do they have a perceived "history" working against them. Plus they are literally just as descriptive as the old terms without mixing in body form confusion or anything.

I do agree with you on the nature of TWYS, gender really has no place in it, only the body type and genitals. That being said, though, this change wasn't aimed at the transgender community in the first place, from what I understand.

As I've mentioned, some of the tags seem to be in the process of being switched to more scientific/less slang terms and this is just part of that. On top of being less vulgar, the terms do mean what we need them to mean.

They seem to get their point across well enough, at least once I read the definitions. The aliases and implications should take care of the rest.

Users will search dickgirl, newhalf, shemale, etc. They'll see the tag gynomorph in their search and on every image they click on. It won't be that hard to figure out what it means.

As for penisgirl, I don't think that would look any less out of place on a safe-rated post than dickgirl and, imho, sounds no less slang/vulgar.

Clawdragons said:
Tags like that have been proposed (including in this thread, if you want to look back and see some other responses to the idea), but first of all, those tags are pretty wordy, and that only gets worse when you consider tags using these terms.

feminine_with_penis/masculine_with_vagina
masculine_with_vagina_on_feral

Personally I would always choose verbosity over ambiguity. Verbosity just takes some extra milliseconds of reading time, ambiguity can cause several minutes of confusion (like having to look up what that tag even means). I suppose that’s just my programmer way of looking at things though.

Daggett said:
Personally I would always choose verbosity over ambiguity. Verbosity just takes some extra milliseconds of reading time, ambiguity can cause several minutes of confusion (like having to look up what that tag even means). I suppose that’s just my programmer way of looking at things though.

you're still free to use the terms you want, it's just the visual shown name for the classification of the genders.

Daggett said:
The suffix ‘-morph’, typically meaning transformation from one thing to another, seems like an odd choice, since the character may not have undergone any physical transformation from birth.

Anthropomorph
post #1906557

Daggett said:
The suffix ‘-morph’, typically meaning transformation from one thing to another, seems like an odd choice, since the character may not have undergone any physical transformation from birth.

The suffix morph just means shape or form. It's used in a variety of words.

In fact, anthropomorphic animals are a main focus of this website.

Gynomorph mean "female-shaped" and andromorph means "male-shaped" if you take the word roots literally.

MagnusEffect said:
Anthropomorph

Exactly, an animal that has been transformed from its original form to something resembling a human form.

Daggett said:
Exactly, an animal that has been transformed from its original form to something resembling a human form.

No, morph as a Greek noun meaning form, not the English definition of morphing.

Imagine going to a site where "dicknipples" is a tag and complaining about "vulgar" tags.

God, Tumblr was a mistake.

TheTundraTerror said:
Imagine going to a site where "dicknipples" is a tag and complaining about "vulgar" tags.

God, Tumblr was a mistake.

Just because another vulgar tag hasn't changed yet doesn't mean it won't ever.

The continued existence of vulgar tags doesn't make changing some to be less vulgar any less valid.

This isn't an all-or-nothing situation.

Ninosi said:
Just because another vulgar tag hasn't changed yet doesn't mean it won't ever.

The continued existence of vulgar tags doesn't make changing some to be less vulgar any less valid.

This isn't an all-or-nothing situation.

In fairness I don't think tags of that sort will have any aliases to reduce vulgarity

NotMeNotYou said:
No, morph as a Greek noun meaning form, not the English definition of morphing.

I think of the term anthropomorphism, which means the act of giving a non-human thing human characteristics, an anthromorph is thus the result of that transformation. If we take the Greek meaning of ‘shape’, then anything resembling a human, including unintentionally human-like inanimate objects, would fit that definition. For example, most cars have vaguely face-like grills, would you label all cars as anthromorphs? I wouldn’t personally, since the anthropomorphism step didn’t take place. If you intentionally give it human characteristics, like say in Cars, then it would qualify as an anthromorph.

Versperus said:
In fairness I don't think tags of that sort will have any aliases to reduce vulgarity

Yeah, that's fair. I highly doubt a tag like that would appear on anything rating:s though, so that's something. I think even a dicknipple-bulge of some sort would be bumped to rating:e for being a "hard fetish" or something like that.

Although, if push comes to shove, we could always open a forum thread about it or discuss it on Discord and get some suggestions on alternatives. Anything's possible.

Ninosi said:
Yeah, that's fair. I highly doubt a tag like that would appear on anything rating:s though, so that's something. I think even a dicknipple-bulge of some sort would be bumped to rating:e for being a "hard fetish" or something like that.

Although, if push comes to shove, we could always open a forum thread about it or discuss it on Discord and get some suggestions on alternatives. Anything's possible.

dicknipples are dicks, if there was some sort of bulge from them that you would be able to tell as a dick it would probably be an outline.

Versperus said:
dicknipples are dicks, if there was some sort of bulge from them that you would be able to tell as a dick it would probably be an outline.

So penis_outline and rating:e. You're right.

I guess it could still be changed eventually, but I doubt that one in particular would be a priority.

Ninosi said:
So penis_outline and rating:e. You're right.

I guess it could still be changed eventually, but I doubt that one in particular would be a priority.

I'm just assuming it's more general tags that are worried about.

Daggett said:

I think of the term anthropomorphism, which means the act of giving a non-human thing human characteristics, an anthromorph is thus the result of that transformation. If we take the Greek meaning of ‘shape’, then anything resembling a human, including unintentionally human-like inanimate objects, would fit that definition. For example, most cars have vaguely face-like grills, would you label all cars as anthromorphs? I wouldn’t personally, since the anthropomorphism step didn’t take place. If you intentionally give it human characteristics, like say in Cars, then it would qualify as an anthromorph.

Well, think of it this way then: a gynomorph is a character with a penis transformed (i.e. drawn or otherwise rendered) to appear as a female. Opposite for andromorphs.

That's as far as it matters for tagging/searching purposes, anyway.

NotMeNotYou said:
Greetings!

As the subject says this is the announcement that we will be changing the tags dickgirl and cuntboy to less vulgar terms. The new terms will be gynomorph for dickgirl and andromorph for cuntboy respectively. This change will be performed for all existing aliases and implications, and all currently existing aliases and implications will continue to work as they already do. They'll just display the new terms.

The old terms will also not be invalidated, whether you search for dickgirl or gynomroph will make no difference, they will return the same search results.

The current plan is to implement this on Tuesday, starting from 01:00AM PDT / 02:00AM MDT / 03:00AM CDT / 04:00AM EDT.

I expect it'll take about 2-3 hours until everything has been transferred and the aliases and implications have fully populated.

In a site where pictures depicting rape and extreme violence people worries how dickgirl and cuntboy are offensive.
Why does everything needs to be propaganda, even porn?

Jesus Christ, where was all this discussion when administrators were actually asking for input? No one had anything to say until after the decision was made. People need to calm down.

• Admin included trans people in the discussion.
• D-girl and C-boy tags didn't go away; they're still there.
• The new tags are additions, not replacements.

For gods' sake, if you prefer the old tags, then use them. But stop waving your uninformed opinions in everyone's faces and try reading before you talk.

A porn site is worried about vulgarity? How ridiculous.

Gynomorph? Fucking please. Are we trying to pretend the site is family friendly or something?

Kalaka said:
A porn site is worried about vulgarity? How ridiculous.

Gynomorph? Fucking please. Are we trying to pretend the site is family friendly or something?

You haven't bothered to read previous posts, then. Admins have answered your questions numerous times.

Nice. I like it.

I'd like to weigh in in favor of the lenghtier but more properly descriptive tags. Personally i'd never seen a problem with Dickgirl/Cuntboy and upon seeing the new tags had to go check what they were supposed to mean (As "character with male/female shape" felt like it'd apply more broadly.), but if folks have been taking issue with them this badly then yes, i can see where this came from now.
However, it seems it'd be better to use the much more straightforward feminine_with_penis/masculine_with_vagina, that also leaves a lot more room for further standardization since it's modular, rather than compressing it all into a single word that barely holds the actual meaning meant for it.

Edit: Seen as femboys and the likes could easily fall under that definition, since "feminine" isn't quite as specific as it'd need to be and they too have penises, perhaps the new "shape definition" words could be used for exactly that, so it'd be gynomorph_with_penis and andromorph_with_vagina. It could be gynomorph_male as i've seen used in some places but i feel that's equally confusing (if not more so).

The owners of this website have ties to real animal rape rings.

😴

This website has offensive tags.

😨😱⁉️ WE BETTER FIX OUR IMAGE!

PassTheTuna said:
The owners of this website have ties to real animal rape rings.



This website has offensive tags.

⁉️ WE BETTER FIX OUR IMAGE!

Got any proof of that claim?

Also, bruh.

MissChu said:
You haven't bothered to read previous posts, then. Admins have answered your questions numerous times.

Just because someone says something, doesn't mean that it's true, y'know.
I wasn't asking any questions (aside from rhetorical ones.)

They can say it's not a porn site, but it's a porn site whether they like it or not. Same with sites like Pixiv, Furaffinity and anywhere else that happens to also allow G rated art.

You could argue that xhamster isn't a porn site, but a "video sharing site that allows adult material."

No one believes what the admins are saying, except those in favour of the changes, no doubt.

PassTheTuna said:
The owners of this website have ties to real animal rape rings.



This website has offensive tags.

⁉️ WE BETTER FIX OUR IMAGE!

[Citation Needed]

But hey, I'm confident some random Twitter post / 8chan thread is a good source of verified information regarding supposed illegal activities. Because nobody ever lied on the internet, nope.

PassTheTuna said:
The owners of this website have ties to real animal rape rings.



This website has offensive tags.

⁉️ WE BETTER FIX OUR IMAGE!

Actually, you are the one that rapes animals. How do I know? I just do. 100% proven.

/sarcasm

Kalaka said:
No one believes what the admins are saying, except those in favour of the changes, no doubt.

"They are wrong and everyone else that agrees with them are also wrong. I know, because I'm always right."

Hey guys. Amateur programmer here. I'd like to take a swing at this from another angle. Why not use the site's tag wiki function to implement subtag functions for character tags?

That way subtags can be added to the character tag to better represent what is known but not always shown in a given image, but only be searchable when looking for tag plus subtag in the search string. This would allow people to easily search images but character owners to maintain a level of agency over there characters and how they are described within their wiki entry. It would also allow folks to still browse images via easy visual identifier tags as well as sub tags to further narrow those results to characters they relate to more.

I know it probably is a lot more back end work but seems like a good compromise and way to improve engagement on the site for users, content creators, and character owners.

A relevent example would be a hermaphrodite character viewed from the front would have an image tag of Gynomorph but the character tag, Hermione Fakename, would contain subtags related to the known knowledge of the character not shown in a particular image.

Waba said:
"They are wrong and everyone else that agrees with them are also wrong. I know, because I'm always right."

"People always tell the truth."
Politicians must love you.

Kalaka said:
"People always tell the truth."
Politicians must love you.

So when a scientist tells you not to drink bleach because you will get poisoned, you'll drink it anyway because "just because someone says something, doesn't mean that it's true"?

First time posting, just wanted to say I'm really happy about the tag alias changes. As a trans person, the tags were a little...icky. It doesn't affect people who use the tags normally 'cause they can still search, and a lot of artists (maybe myself when I get back to drawing) won't conditionally DNP. It's a win win imo ^^

Master_Shake said:
In a site where pictures depicting rape and extreme violence people worries how dickgirl and cuntboy are offensive.
Why does everything needs to be propaganda, even porn?

brudda how is not using slurs for trans people and using medical terms instead "propganda"

NotMeNotYou said:
Greetings!

As the subject says this is the announcement that we will be changing the tags dickgirl and cuntboy to less vulgar terms.

As for this change, being nice to people isn't caving in. The terms have been vulgar, and we're simply changing them because of that.

Well, it all depends on who you are being nice to.

Are you being nice to people that are “””“effected”””” by the cuntboy/dickgirl tags and the TWYS system? No. the only people that can somewhat be “”effected”” by these tags, are people of the Trans community. There has been trans people is this thread, saying them and their friends couldn’t care less about the tags. People do come together and form groups based on shared interest but there is no group of people that have a hive mind mentality, so to say these tags effect all trans people is complete BS.

So who are you guys being nice to? People that are offended by silliest shit imaginable, SJWs.
I’m not saying everyone that is for the change is a SJW but it’s really easy to point out the ones that are (they’re the people posting over the top, blatant BS and this thread is full of it.) All of the people that sent in complaints aren’t even part of the trans community, they’re the current year moral busy bodies that scream bloody murder every time they see something that goes against their PC religion.

“”“Being nice””” to SJWs is caving in. With that being said, not only is this change is completely unnecessary but it sets a bad precedent too. The Cry Bullies now know if they whine long and hard enough, they'll eventually get what they want.

MissChu said:
You haven't bothered to read previous posts, then. Admins have answered your questions numerous times.

Wait what?! You mean where it was stated to 100% not be about whining from misinformed egoists, and instead fully about "vulgarity"... but except only in this one totally not special case. (and surely only coincidentally, in any non vulgar but just as descriptive cases, using proper "medical" terms.. for reasons of... just because. see penisgirl etc) Thus not applying to other tags using the same or similar, but non "vulgar" terms, or the piles and piles of (I guess non "vulgar") rape/scat/vore/murder/porn etc that literally are all over this porn/hentai site. But again, having nothing at all to do with whining.. especially since admins actually brought up all the toxic abuse and attacks they get from said whiners.. which proves it! *nods*

UgandaKnucklesYT said:
brudda how is not using slurs for trans people and using medical terms instead "propganda"

Using terms about a something that doesn't even exist (gender) in the tagging system to begin with.. yet somehow you REEEEE it into "slurs for trans people"?! Amazing! smh

We've been over this before. Those terms, within the context of hentai/fictional furry porn, and ESPECIALLY withing the context of TWYS, have nothing at all to do with "trans people".. everything isn't always about or against them. (No matter how hard some people may screech!)

Also, maybe learn to look at the thread/facts and pay attention to the way the site actually works (TWYS) before jumping to conclusions next time.

JeffreyDahmer said:
Well, it all depends on who you are being nice to.

Are you being nice to people that are “””“effected”””” by the cuntboy/dickgirl tags and the TWYS system? No. the only people that can somewhat be “”effected”” by these tags, are people of the Trans community. There has been trans people is this thread, saying them and their friends couldn’t care less about the tags. People do come together and form groups based on shared interest but there is no group of people that have a hive mind mentality, so to say these tags effect all trans people is complete BS.

So who are you guys being nice to? People that are offended by silliest shit imaginable, SJWs.
I’m not saying everyone that is for the change is a SJW but it’s really easy to point out the ones that are (they’re the people posting over the top, blatant BS and this thread is full of it.) All of the people that sent in complaints aren’t even part of the trans community, they’re the current year moral busy bodies that scream bloody murder every time they see something that goes against their PC religion.

“”“Being nice””” to SJWs is caving in. With that being said, not only is this change is completely unnecessary but it sets a bad precedent too. The Cry Bullies now know if they whine long and hard enough, they'll eventually get what they want.

Drkfce0 said:
Wait what?! You mean where it was stated to 100% not be about whining from misinformed egoists, and instead fully about "vulgarity"... but except only in this one totally not special case. (and surely only coincidentally, in any non vulgar but just as descriptive cases, using proper "medical" terms.. for reasons of... just because. see penisgirl etc) Thus not applying to other tags using the same or similar, but non "vulgar" terms, or the piles and piles of (I guess non "vulgar") rape/scat/vore/murder/porn etc that literally are all over this porn/hentai site. But again, having nothing at all to do with whining.. especially since admins actually brought up all the toxic abuse and attacks they get from said whiners.. which proves it! *nods*

Using terms about a something that doesn't even exist (gender) in the tagging system to begin with.. yet somehow you REEEEE it into "slurs for trans people"?! Amazing! smh

We've been over this before. Those terms, within the context of hentai/fictional furry porn, and ESPECIALLY withing the context of TWYS, have nothing at all to do with "trans people".. everything isn't always about or against them. (No matter how hard some people may screech!)

Also, maybe learn to look at the thread/facts and pay attention to the way the site actually works (TWYS) before jumping to conclusions next time.

Seriously, was any of this warranted? If you don't like the tag changes, take it up with the admins in a reasonable and logical fashion.

Mairo said:
Because this isn't a pornsite.

NotMeNotYou said:

We are not a porn archive, we are a furry art archive.

You guys(??? Gers? Xers?… whatever) can claim you’re not a porn site all you want but it’s not going to change how people view this place or what they use it for.

>The parent company of this site(Bad Dragon) sells sex toys fashion after animal genitalia.
>There are ads for furry dating sites and sex toys fashion after animal genitalia, hosted on this site
>Majority of the “artwork” uploaded to this site is pornographic in nature
>Majority of this site’s user base is here for porn

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and host pornographic artwork depicting cartoon ducks having sex, it’s going viewed and called porn site.

MissChu said:
Seriously, was any of this warranted? If you don't like the tag changes, take it up with the admins in a reasonable and logical fashion.

Maybe not in reply to you specifically (sorry about that) but yes, it really was. We have not gotten even a simple basic answer that made any sense at all, as to the reason we "needed" this change to begin with. Hand-waving away doesn't even begin to describe what's going on here.

MissChu said:
Seriously, was any of this warranted? If you don't like the tag changes, take it up with the admins in a reasonable and logical fashion.

Yes it is and people have been taking it up with the mods, they just get responses like this.

SnowWolf said:
In this thread:

"Thanks I really appreciate this!"
"No one appreciates this!"

"I'm so glad that the terms are gone, I really hated them!"
"No one had a problem with the old terms!"

"I really love the new words!"
"No one likes the new words!"

"I'm really glad, I hate it when people use the term cuntboy to hurtfully describe me"
"No one uses cuntboy as an insult!!!"

"Humans do not share a hive mind"
"NO ONE EVER IN THE HISTORY OF FOREVER HAS EVER....."

Not only is it condescending, it's a misrepresentation of the point people are trying to make and it's done to be dismissive towards their views.

Drkfce0 said:
Maybe not in reply to you specifically (sorry about that) but yes, it really was. We have not gotten even a simple basic answer that made any sense at all, as to the reason we "needed" this change to begin with. Hand-waving away doesn't even begin to describe what's going on here.

JeffreyDahmer said:
Yes it is and people have been taking it up with the mods, they just get responses like this.

Not only is it condescending, it's a misrepresentation of the point people are trying to make and it's done to be dismissive towards their views.

Okay, and I understand completely, you're both frustrated, but going on tirades of your own won't get your points across any more easily. If anything, it'll just make the waters murkier.

Drkfce0 said:
Maybe not in reply to you specifically (sorry about that) but yes, it really was. We have not gotten even a simple basic answer that made any sense at all, as to the reason we "needed" this change to begin with. Hand-waving away doesn't even begin to describe what's going on here.

You got the answers. The fact that you don't like our answers isn't something we can help you with.

JeffreyDahmer said:
Yes it is and people have been taking it up with the mods, they just get responses like this.

You're the one dismissing our answers and reasons because for you they seemingly lack an ulterior motive. The answer is, and will be, that we did it to have less vulgar terms to refer to certain types of characters, and to be a bit nicer to a certain group of people. The people we want to be nicer to are not the people screeching on either side of the arguments, neither are they SJW, nor are they the trans character owners.

JeffreyDahmer said:
Not only is it condescending, it's a misrepresentation of the point people are trying to make and it's done to be dismissive towards their views.

Quite the contrary, here's a citation of every single statement SnowWolf paraphrased from within this very thread:

The two statements without links I can't find in this thread, but I'm pretty sure you we have at least one example of each in this behemoth.
These statements have not been paraphrased to dismiss your arguments, they have been made to make light of the fact that for every argument anyone in this thread presented in good faith, at least one other user has presented a contradictory argument with the same good faith.
And the entire point of that spiel was to simply highlight that both sides have valid arguments and views, even if they contradict each other.

Of course, if you don't like any of our answers I could make one up. I'm pretty good at spinning tall tales so if this is too boring of an answer to fit into whatever narrative you'd like for us to push I can totally provide.
Would definitely beat having to repeat the actual answers even more often just to have them brushed away because they're too simple.

Waba said:
So when a scientist tells you not to drink bleach because you will get poisoned, you'll drink it anyway because "just because someone says something, doesn't mean that it's true"?

The Admins aren't scientists reporting facts, they're politicians trying to justify their choices.

TheHuskyK9 said:
Because if we did that, folks would say that we're "abusing our power" or "not being transparent"

Y'all want to be transparent? Hellz yeah, I loves me some transparency.

Y'all b sayin that was done to change the cuntboy,dickgirl tags to something less vulgar.

Well, obviously, people would have to complain about these tags for a long time before the mod staff would view them as an issue.(this claim is backed up by all the people in the thread saying they have been complaining about it for a long time.

How long has the staff been receiving complaints about these tags?
How many complaints has the staff received about the tags?
Out of all the complaints, how many of them were made by actual users?(people that actively use the site?
Out of all the complaints, how many of them were made by people that just signed up and made a account to file a complaint?(Sock accounts, discord raid accounts)

People have been complaining about this for a while.

It would lead a person to believe that they would become up set and try complaining to the site owners.

Have bypassed the mods and started complaining to the site owner?
If so, how long has it been going on for?
If so, how many complaints have they received and do they seem credible?
Have people started complaining to Bad Dragon about e621's trans-phobia?

Was decision made solely by the staff?
Was decision made solely by the owner?

Honestly, civil discussion ended hours or days ago. All the complaints have been answered and are now just being rehashed by people who are never going to accept a reasonable response. Admin should call it done and lock the discussion.

CCoyote said:
Honestly, civil discussion ended hours or days ago. All the complaints have been answered and are now just being rehashed by people who are never going to accept a reasonable response. Admin should call it done and lock the discussion.

The only reasonable response is to say "Sorry, we messed up, reverting this ill thought out and unpopular change."

Other responses are not reasonable, because they are specifically made to show that they won't be reasoned with.