Implicating ultra_lunala → pokémon
Link to implication

Reason:

Ultra Lunala is a pokémon.

Despite originating from the Ultra Dimension, neither Lunala nor Necrozma are regarded as Ultra Beasts by pokemon lore, so I don't think it's worth an implication there. Should also not imply the two individual pokemon, similar to mega forms.

Related:
Ultra_solgaleo -> pokémon

I guess we should discuss properly when those alternative forms should be considered completely new species and when they should be considered just variations of the same pokémon.
I mean, should these new forms imply 'lunala' and 'solgaleo' (respectively) or should they imply 'pokémon'. In this case the answer probably is the latter, but this whole subject still needs a deeper discussion.

It's already been discussed to death. Tagging them separately is the only way to retain searchability.

...+1

Genjar said:
It's already been discussed to death. Tagging them separately is the only way to retain searchability.

That makes me wonder; if a pokémon has multiple forms and all these have specific names, would be OK to imply [form] → [pokémon], right?

e.g.

• deoxys
• castform
• hoopa
• etc

O16 said:
That makes me wonder; if a pokémon has multiple forms and all these have specific names, would be OK to imply [form] → [pokémon], right?

e.g.

• deoxys
• castform
• hoopa
• etc

If it only has forms, yes:
baile_oricorio, pom-pom_oricorio, pa'u_oricorio, sensu_oricorio -> oricorio

O16 said:
I guess we should discuss properly when those alternative forms should be considered completely new species and when they should be considered just variations of the same pokémon.
I mean, should these new forms imply 'lunala' and 'solgaleo' (respectively) or should they imply 'pokémon'. In this case the answer probably is the latter, but this whole subject still needs a deeper discussion.

As Gengar said, when the form is a change from the base, there is no implication to the base. If we were to have a clear weather castform tag, it would have to be something that wasn't only castform to avoid implying forms together.
lunala ultra_lunala should only currently reveal one image:
post #1238332
And this demonstrates why we need the distinction. It would be impossible to find this as we get a bunch of new Ultra Lunala images, because an exclusion would only work to find images with no Ultra whatsoever, meaning it excludes this image which does feature the base.

Furrin_Gok said:
As Gengar said, when the form is a change from the base, there is no implication to the base. If we were to have a clear weather castform tag, it would have to be something that wasn't only castform to avoid implying forms together.

I understand well why we don't do such implications, my question wasn't about that.

I was referring about making clear about how we should proceed with every pokémon alternative form, with no exception.

For example: some "standard forms" have actual names like: 'standard mode' (darmanitan), 'normal form' (deoxys) , 'hoopa confined' (hoopa), land form (shaymin), 'ordinary form' ( keldeo), 'normal castform' (castform) etc.
Until now, no one had truly clarified if It is OK to do implications in situations like those.

p.s. we actually have one tag, it is 'normal_castform'.

O16 said:
For example: some "standard forms" have actual names like: 'standard mode' (darmanitan), 'normal form' (deoxys) , 'hoopa confined' (hoopa), land form (shaymin), 'ordinary form' ( keldeo), 'normal castform' (castform) etc.
Until now, no one had truly clarified if It is OK to do implications in situations like those.

p.s. we actually have one tag, it is 'normal_castform'.

Form tags have been standardized to *_(*_form), so we should probably stick to that. Of those, Shaymin is already split into separate shaymin and shaymin_(sky_form) tags.

The rest could use form tags (especially Hoopa, since its forms look completely different), but it seems that nobody cares much about sorting non-furry pokemon. And I don't see any posts of Darmanitan's other form, so that's not high priority either.

Genjar said:
Form tags have been standardized to *_(*_form), so we should probably stick to that. Of those, Shaymin is already split into separate shaymin and shaymin_(sky_form) tags.

Wrong. It's split between [[land_shaymin|land_shaymin]] and shaymin_(sky_form), and the shaymin tag is also present on almost all of those images.

BlueDingo said:
Wrong. It's split between [[land_shaymin|land_shaymin]] and shaymin_(sky_form), and the shaymin tag is also present on almost all of those images.

Hm, so it is. I'll just go ahead and tag script land_shaymin into shaymin_(land_form), where it should be.

It existed at one point, but looks like someone wiped several form tags in... August 2016? Shame that nobody noticed, or reported it.

Genjar said:
Form tags have been standardized to *_(*_form), so we should probably stick to that. Of those, Shaymin is already split into separate shaymin and shaymin_(sky_form) tags.

I am with BlueDingo in regarding of shaymin.

Genjar said:
The rest could use form tags (especially Hoopa, since its forms look completely different), but it seems that nobody cares much about sorting non-furry pokemon. And I don't see any posts of Darmanitan's other form, so that's not high priority either.

I) I care, actually I am planning some tagging also some implication regarding alternative forms.

II) we have at least two posts featuring darmanitan's zen mode (post #112755 and post #864318)

Question: and what should we do about some extreme gender differences? (more specifically: frillish, jellicent, pyroar, unfezant and meowstic)
I think we could use something like 'jellicent_(♂)', because we can't use the gender system as a differentiation criteria.

O16 said:
'jellicent_(♂)'

I would rather not make people type unicode symbols. 'jellicent_(male)' would be more user-friendly.

Nidoran is split between nidoran♂ and nidoran♀ but the again, they're treated as two separate species in the games, shows, etc. mostly because they were the only pokémon with genders at the time and Nintendo have made no effort to change this.

BlueDingo said:
I would rather not make people type unicode symbols. 'jellicent_(male)' would be more user-friendly.

I konw, but everything that has 'male' in the name could be a little misleading (subcontietly, a name and a symbol haven't the same impact).
I thought about solving the issue you pointed through alises.

BlueDingo said:

Nidoran is split between nidoran♂ and nidoran♀ but the again, they're treated as two separate species in the games, shows, etc. mostly because they were the only pokémon with genders at the time and Nintendo have made no effort to change this.

I am aware.

Oh, I forgot to mention: the original plan for the forms was this (shaymin as example):

• shaymin
• shaymin_(land_form)
• shaymin_(sky_form)

Not sure if we decided what to do with the base tag. I don't see much harm in keeping it, except that it could get a bit spammy and it's not really needed when you can just search for shaymin* if you want to see all forms. Probably best not to untag those when you tag the forms, though.

Genjar said:
Oh, I forgot to mention: the original plan for the forms was this (shaymin as example):

• shaymin
• shaymin_(land_form)
• shaymin_(sky_form)

Not sure if we decided what to do with the base tag. I don't see much harm in keeping it, except that it could get a bit spammy and it's not really needed when you can just search for shaymin* if you want to see all forms. Probably best not to untag those when you tag the forms, though.

There's also the fact that a mega evolution is technically another form yet we handle that one differently. We need a form system that includes that as well.

If shaymin is removed, those who wish to exclude shaymin for whatever reason would still need both tags to exclude both forms (-shaymin* doesn't work).

Male/female forms are a bit iffy. Technically accurate, but in utility they can cause some tag issues. Make sure to report if you see somebody tagging their genders based on the form's name, as staff can now lock those gender tags out of the image.

Regarding the base forms, you can technicaly run a wildcard search, like shaymin*, so some of them we should probably get rid of, but then we got things like the oricorio, where the base tag is useful because somebody might not know what the different forms are (and there is no "base" form).

Ultra Lunala is actually Dawn Wings Necrozma and Ultra Solgaleo is actually Dusk Mane Necrozma. The implications were denied by DiceLovesBeingBlown because those two tags no longer exist, but sadly we haven't had an alias go through yet.

The alias is pending over at forum #252417, if anybody wants to get their say in.