Aliasing partially_translated → translation_request
Link to alias

Reason:

The tag doesn't provide any meaningful extra information. All it means is that there's work to be done on the picture, and I don't know why anybody going through translating would just stop halfway through one. From what I've seen, it looks like posters who wouldn't normally be doing the work to begin with trudge through some low hanging fruit and then give up. But it doesn't change the task when you get to it anyway. It's only marginally faster to verify what someone tried than to just do it from the start anyway. Better to just do some if you really want to, but not meaninglessly distinguish between a request for translation of some vs all of the content. I just switched to start whittling them down, but it would be nice if once those ones are done, there wouldn't be any more "you'll accidentally leave this in the queue unwittingly" ones added going forward.

EDIT: The tag alias partially_translated -> translation_request (forum #247885) has been rejected by @Millcore.

notnobody said:
Aliasing partially_translated → translation_request
Link to alias

Reason:

The tag doesn't provide any meaningful extra information. All it means is that there's work to be done on the picture, and I don't know why anybody going through translating would just stop halfway through one. From what I've seen, it looks like posters who wouldn't normally be doing the work to begin with trudge through some low hanging fruit and then give up. But it doesn't change the task when you get to it anyway. It's only marginally faster to verify what someone tried than to just do it from the start anyway. Better to just do some if you really want to, but not meaninglessly distinguish between a request for translation of some vs all of the content. I just switched to start whittling them down, but it would be nice if once those ones are done, there wouldn't be any more "you'll accidentally leave this in the queue unwittingly" ones added going forward.

should be an implication

It already is implicated to it, is part of the problem. If you search translation_request and go through picking them off, you get into the swing of just finishing and then changing "ion_request" to "ed" in the one tag. If you don't notice the other, your change just gets flung back and the item stays in the queue. Even if the implication was broken, you could still totally finish one, only to have it declare itself unfinished because you missed the erroneous tag - and we have a limited number of people able to verify that it's become wrong at that point. My problem with it is that it's non-zero annoyance to provide zero value. Even the wiki says that it's for things that need to be completely translated. Everything needs to be completely translated. Whether the job is done or not is totally covered by whether the request tag is there.

notnobody said:
It already is implicated to it, is part of the problem. If you search translation_request and go through picking them off, you get into the swing of just finishing and then changing "ion_request" to "ed" in the one tag. If you don't notice the other, your change just gets flung back and the item stays in the queue. Even if the implication was broken, you could still totally finish one, only to have it declare itself unfinished because you missed the erroneous tag - and we have a limited number of people able to verify that it's become wrong at that point. My problem with it is that it's non-zero annoyance to provide zero value. Even the wiki says that it's for things that need to be completely translated. Everything needs to be completely translated. Whether the job is done or not is totally covered by whether the request tag is there.

so we can just search translated translation_request and remove partially_translated whole removing translation_request

We could do that retroactively, yeah. But by "we," we only mean those few of us who can verify that partially_translated isn't there as a surrogate for translation_check, which is valid enough to have. But that still begs the question of why we would do that extra work in the first place, to maintain a tag that provides zero value. Partially_translated means nothing that translation_request doesn't to anyone doing the work, and from what I'm seeing more and more as I go, often actually means basically nothing to anybody at all.

It seems to me that the only bonus to partially_translated is that the people who do translations can expect slightly less work than they expected initially.

I'd +1 this--partially translated seems to have little to no value.

I pretty much don't expect less work with it. The only way anybody ever really partially does an image is when they're just trudging through what they can with guessing and google and giving up part way through. It's not really any quicker to verify the finished bits than to just start from scratch, and it's a touch more annoying to remove the extraneous tag afterward. The only reason I'm searching it right now is just to get rid of its current usages.

SnowWolf said:
It seems to me that the only bonus to partially_translated is that the people who do translations can expect slightly less work than they expected initially.

It was created because of the same problem that I mentioned in the other thread. Translated is for translated posts, translation_request is mostly for untranslated ones.

So tagging partially translated posts (especially ones that are only missing small bits) as translation_request led to a lot of users thinking: 'well, this looks translated to me' and removing the tag.

Partially_translated shows that there's still things left to translate, even if the post looks fully translated. It servers it's purpose, and should not be aliased away.

Genjar said:
It was created because of the same problem that I mentioned in the other thread. Translated is for translated posts, translation_request is mostly for untranslated ones.

So tagging partially translated posts (especially ones that are only missing small bits) as translation_request led to a lot of users thinking: 'well, this looks translated to me' and removing the tag.

Partially_translated shows that there's still things left to translate, even if the post looks fully translated. It servers it's purpose, and should not be aliased away.

In particular, I'm fond of this tag. I can understand enough Japanese to make an attempt at translating, which then needs to be checked, but when it comes to text that's written instead of typed, I don't recognize much Kanji to start with and can't translate boxes that have sloppy chickanji scratch.

Heh. I like the term chikanji scratch... Sounds like someone on the train with long nails.

I don't know if I was clear on why this tag is an issue for me.

When I'm working on an image, I either do 100% of it or none at all. Some people, sometimes, might not do just some of the sound effects. But I've also seen requests on tons of images where there's nothing at all *but* sound effects. The difference between those states is subjective and, yeah, maybe annoying. But what purpose is there to marking that one out of three word bubbles is done? It's nothing. If you're going through and hitting images, and you come across one with one of three done, how's that different from zero? I see no meaningful info there. Just don't bother changing it. You wrote a note, and that's recorded, but until the image is done being translated, what's the point in changing the tags?

notnobody said:
Heh. I like the term chikanji scratch... Sounds like someone on the train with long nails.

I don't know if I was clear on why this tag is an issue for me.

When I'm working on an image, I either do 100% of it or none at all. Some people, sometimes, might not do just some of the sound effects. But I've also seen requests on tons of images where there's nothing at all *but* sound effects. The difference between those states is subjective and, yeah, maybe annoying. But what purpose is there to marking that one out of three word bubbles is done? It's nothing. If you're going through and hitting images, and you come across one with one of three done, how's that different from zero? I see no meaningful info there. Just don't bother changing it. You wrote a note, and that's recorded, but until the image is done being translated, what's the point in changing the tags?

You are not the only person who works on these things. Just because you work it all or nothing doesn't mean anybody else has to or does.

Are you saying you think most people do images collaboratively? I don't think that's impossible, but I don't see any evidence to support it. And even if I did, I don't see how it's any different from what I'm suggesting. Are you saying some people out there exclusively work on images someone else has already started?

Edit: only->exclusively

notnobody said:
Are you saying you think most people do images collaboratively? I don't think that's impossible, but I don't see any evidence to support it. And even if I did, I don't see how it's any different from what I'm suggesting. Are you saying some people out there only work on images someone else has already started?

Try reading the previously brought up points again: People see notes, people thing the translation is finished. As you yourself said,

notnobody said:
Some people, sometimes, might not do just some of the sound effects. But I've also seen requests on tons of images where there's nothing at all *but* sound effects.

What if the people who are only going in editing tags are of that same opinion? They see the notes on some text, and figure the text without notes is all sound effects. The important stuff must be translated, then, so they remove the request tag.
While there's no difference to people translating whether or not there's a partially_translated tag, the tag's existence does mean that people won't accidentally remove a tag that should remain on the image.

What you're saying boils down to suggesting removing the implication from partially_translated to translation_request - which would at least be better, and would make for an easier cleanup. But as it is now, if you're going through one after another and replacing translation_request with translated, if you don't notice that partially_translated was twelve lines above too, your change gets undone by the implication and your work goes right back into the queue. But I still don't see the point. You either request a translation of one piece of text in an image or twenty. No matter how many it is, you're requesting some, and it makes no difference to any person whether they're heading in to do 1 out of 1 or 1 out of 40 text items. It's still a request, and nobody searching to just look at it gets anything out of knowing that that one piece of forty is done.

notnobody said:
What you're saying boils down to suggesting removing the implication from partially_translated to translation_request

No? My statement is the exact opposite, that we keep the implication. You are the one saying to get rid of it.

But as it is now, if you're going through one after another and replacing translation_request with translated, if you don't notice that partially_translated was twelve lines above too, your change gets undone by the implication and your work goes right back into the queue. But I still don't see the point. You either request a translation of one piece of text in an image or twenty. No matter how many it is, you're requesting some, and it makes no difference to any person whether they're heading in to do 1 out of 1 or 1 out of 40 text items. It's still a request, and nobody searching to just look at it gets anything out of knowing that that one piece of forty is done.

If you throw the translated tag onto an image with three of seven lines translated, and in turn get rid of translation_request, how do you expect fellow translators to get to it? You raise good points that I agree with, and have agreed with from the start, but then argue for a "solution" that is malevolent and will actively harm our efforts.

The fact that images can be found in translated translation_request is proof that people make such mistakes, and as long as they do, we should keep the implication there to allow the mistakes to be fixed.

To me, those two tags sound like "solved" and "awaiting solution." They're totally mutually exclusive. I don't see what value we get out of saying that someone's taken an initial look at it, regardless of the progress. Whether you're heading into an image expecting to work on half of an as-yet-unknown total amount of content or all of it, it's totally the same. And when you're on the other end, just looking to view some pictures, all you probably care about is whether or not you can read everything there is to read. The midpoint serves no extra purpose. All the implication does is mess up someone's attempt to say they're finished when they actually do finish it.

Well, I already explained it.
The implication's there to stop overzealous taggers from untagging translation_request while it still applies.

And yes, that happened a lot before the implication. Without basic knowledge of Japanese language, it's hard to understand what's translatable and what's not. Kanji can look awfully lot like signatures or logos etc, if you're not familiar with it.

Worse than that, without basic knowledge of the language, what a lot of people - mostly in the long past at least as far as I've seen for some reason (maybe thanks to wous?) - seem to have done is just written random text of their own devising, with no relation whatsoever to what's actually written on the page, into notes and tagged them as translated. This isn't people who see boxes and make assumptions, but people who decide that whatever story they invented on their own suffices. But either type of person, I can't imagine is going to be daunted by having to change just one more tag in addition. The only way we could theoretically control that would be to restrict the usage of the tag or something. But then you'd have to know who's qualified to say who's qualified, and so on. It's an annoying problem no matter how you slice it.

I personally never liked the tag myself. The only times I tend to even become aware of it is in cases where translation_request is automatically added after I'd just finished clearing it. I've never made a big deal out of it since it has always been somewhat rare and I'd supposed that there was some use for it that I just couldn't see. The tag seems like a waste of seconds all around to me.

Bumping this. Partially_translated really is just superfluous. Can't we just let it go to sleep in translation_request now? Because of my sometimes worse than dial-up connection, it actually cost more time to deal with than I can remain comfortable with. I even just had the tag dropped on me a little while ago while I was in the middle of translating a post.

The tag alias partially_translated -> translation_request (forum #247885) has been rejected by @Millcore.