I really really hate that the Boyish tag is not only completely unused, but it automatically redirects to Tomboy.

I do not like tomboys, I like boys who look youthful, sporty and cute.
I also enjoy femboys, and I also enjoy femboys WITH boyish men and boyish boys.

I do not like bara men, I do not like muscular old looking fatties with beards, I like boyish appearances. I like adult boys, I like young boys, I like cute boys, I like cute boys being fucked by femboys.

I can not search for adult men who look boyish, I can not search for josou seme femboys fucking non femboy boys who look boyish because SOMEONE decided that "boyish means a girl who dresses like a dude". No, Boyish literally means boylike. There is LITERALLY no tag for boylike men on this website, because someone decided that Tomboys should kill everyone else's fun. I do not want to search for manly women, I want to search for cute boys.

Please make this a unique tag, so it's not just a non-existent tag that just redirects to a tag I do not want to look at.

If you think there is no reason for a "boyish" tag to exist for men since they are inherently boyish (which btw, would make you a bigot) and you don't need redundant tags, then please go ahead and remove all these tags as well
femboy_pred
chubby_femboy
femboy/femboy
muscular_femboy
femboy_rimming
femboy_rimming_male
larger_femboy
plus_size_femboy
hung_femboy
dominant_femboy

PLEASE, I just want ONE single descriptive tag for tagging and searching for art of boyish characters like
https://e621.net/posts?tags=c.j._%28animal_crossing%29+
https://e621.net/posts?tags=si_ra_ta_ma3+
https://e621.net/posts?tags=manmosu_marimo+

boyish
/ˈbɔɪɪʃ/
adjective
adjective: boyish
    of, like, or characteristic of a male child or young man.
    "his boyish charm"

Bara does not mean Boyish men either, it means fat guys with beards. And "Twink" who technically should mean youthful looking men, is for some weird reason redirecting to femboy as if there isn't already a million words for that tag and even if it wasn't it would not describe young boys who are not girlish if I for example wanted to search for images that had both a femboy and a boyish boy.

I have ONE other suggestion if you absolutely REALLY do not want to let the Boyish tag also mean Boys
Give me a Bishounen tag for men and boys who are boyish.

That tag will literally never be confused with tomboys, that word exists specifically to describe males only.

Anyway sorry for rant but I've been going insane trying to find ways to look for art of this specific thing because there absolutely is a shitton of it but none of it is tagged in a way that makes it easy to find.

I agree with you, I think, but next time, please try to work on making your argument without aggression, anger, oversharing, or entitlement. Not trying to be mean - just want to point out the way your post came across.

There is already a thread to remove the controversial twink to femboy alias so you should vote on that. I'm not sure it's going to go anywhere despite overwhelming support, so you might want to keep your hopes in check. The site might be dug in on the way the femboy and tomboy tags are used, for whatever reason.

post #5555360

Bye now!

bertil2 said:
And "Twink" who technically should mean youthful looking men, is for some weird reason redirecting to femboy

An endless plight to me. In my eyes, and probably more peoples, a twink is a young, slim/small male with little to no body hair, which in furries that latter part could mean that the character is lacking those extra tufts of hair some furries have on their pits, chest and pubic region. Twinks aren't all femboys and not all femboys are twinks, as those tags you mentioned point out, so it's a nonsense alias to me. It's also really strange how often femboy is seemingly treated like a gender tag while e621 actively does not define it that way.

As for the core point, I think you are kinda right and also applies to how girly is aliased with femboy. Yes, femboys are girly, but so are little girls and youthful traditionally feminine women. Tomboys are boyish, but so are little boys and youthful traditionally masculine men. What makes me a little hesitant is that by the nature of it both referring to an immature males masculinity while also referring to how some women choose to break the gender norms might make it a little confusing and call instead for disambiguation, but perhaps I'm overthinking on that front.

donkdewd said:
I agree with you, I think, but next time, please try to work on making your argument without aggression, anger, oversharing, or entitlement. Not trying to be mean - just want to point out the way your post came across.

There is already a thread to remove the controversial twink to femboy alias so you should vote on that. I'm not sure it's going to go anywhere despite overwhelming support, so you might want to keep your hopes in check. The site might be dug in on the way the femboy and tomboy tags are used, for whatever reason.

post #5555360

Bye now!

Yeah sorry about the hostile attitude, I'm a bit of a hothead and I have a tendency to let my frustration bleed into my opinions sometimes.
I kind of wrote this thread because I got really annoyed today when I tried looking for it, and I have felt the same way other times before about it.

pookashifts said:
An endless plight to me. In my eyes, and probably more peoples, a twink is a young, slim/small male with little to no body hair, which in furries that latter part could mean that the character is lacking those extra tufts of hair some furries have on their pits, chest and pubic region. Twinks aren't all femboys and not all femboys are twinks, as those tags you mentioned point out, so it's a nonsense alias to me. It's also really strange how often femboy is seemingly treated like a gender tag while e621 actively does not define it that way.

As for the core point, I think you are kinda right and also applies to how girly is aliased with femboy. Yes, femboys are girly, but so are little girls and youthful traditionally feminine women. Tomboys are boyish, but so are little boys and youthful traditionally masculine men. What makes me a little hesitant is that by the nature of it both referring to an immature males masculinity while also referring to how some women choose to break the gender norms might make it a little confusing and call instead for disambiguation, but perhaps I'm overthinking on that front.

Oh absolutely I also think Girly is too broad of a term to only apply to Femboys, and imo I think people who like cute girls would be able to search for images with adult girls who are really into pink and femininity and all that and likewise I bet a lot of people would love to be able to search for yuri art of cute girly girls doing things with cute tomboy girls in the same image.

I think Girly and Boyish being more broad, would help people make more accurate searches. If you only want femboys then you can just write femboy or girly -female, and if you want tomboys you can just write tomboy or boyish -male. But completely locking out everyone who likes the standard traditional meaning of the word... that doesn't seem like it helps anyone.

bertil2 said:
snip

You actually can search josou_seme and also blacklist barazoku
Josou_seme is not restricted to femboy on femboy content, just the dominant femboy

nin10dope said:
You actually can search josou_seme and also blacklist barazoku
Josou_seme is not restricted to femboy on femboy content, just the dominant femboy

Sure, but that's a needlessly convoluted way of getting what I want and it's still not enough to help me search for specific images of things that have both the boyish boys and girly boys. Also that's just one example, what if I want images of specifically boyish boys an girly girls together?

Also I angrily exaggerated when I said I hate bara and tomboys, I like it sometimes. But I just most of all want the search to be more accurate. I just don't see any good reason Girly and Boyish should be made completely useless as tags by just redirecting to Tomboy and Femboy when those things already have very popular tags. Girly and Boyish could be much more useful as fairly broad tags for a specific aesthetic, rather than not being allowed to exist at all.

pookashifts said:
It's also really strange how often femboy is seemingly treated like a gender tag while e621 actively does not define it that way..

trying to fit femboy into a gender category, as we define the groupings, would be either entirely impossible or would need to be exclusionary to any potential andromorph and maleherm characters who are currently considered femboy.

dba_afish said:
trying to fit femboy into a gender category, as we define the groupings, would be either entirely impossible or would need to be exclusionary to any potential andromorph and maleherm characters who are currently considered femboy.

I agree with this, I'm just saying there seems quite a few cases where that's not being followed through

bertil2 said:
Sure, but that's a needlessly convoluted way of getting what I want

One tag is convoluted?

nin10dope said:
One tag is convoluted?

Well, yes, since "Josou seme" does not equal "boyish_male" - that's not how anyone would translate that term. And I think it is convoluted to expect users to understand hyper-obscure Japanese terms to find what they're looking for a website where the primary language is English, and the English tags are aliased incorrectly to opposite-gender terms.

post #4214930

donkdewd said:
Well, yes, since "Josou seme" does not equal "boyish_male" - that's not how anyone would translate that term. And I think it is convoluted to expect users to understand hyper-obscure Japanese terms to find what they're looking for a website where the primary language is English, and the English tags are aliased incorrectly to opposite-gender terms.

post #4214930

Alright you don't need the unnecessary hyperbole about it being a Japanese term and the question was rhetorical regardless

nin10dope said:
One tag is convoluted?

Yes, not allowing one single tag for the one thing I want while simultaneously allowing a ton of other offshoot tags of other things is incredibly strange. Also like I said, your solution doesn't give me all the things I want. It forces me to blacklist something I don't want to blacklist, and it doesn't actually help me with things like getting images with specifically boyish boys with girly boys.

I don't think forcing people to blacklist unrelated things for a higher chance to MAYBE find the thing they want, is better than simply making a tag for the thing they want. Even your solution were to help me specifically in this scenario (it wouldn't, but hypothetically) it would still leave the door open for other people to have the same problem finding the same thing I'm looking for right now in the future. You're attempting to treat the symptom, I want to cure the cause.

And who does it hurt to change those tags to have a new meaning? They are literally not used, they are just redirect tags to something that is only vaguely related to the tag and are already incredibly popular and well known. And more importantly the thing it redirects to, is not the thing I am searching that tag for. And it doesn't even follow the literal dictionary definition of what the word is, that is just confusing.

Also if you don't think "boyish boys" or "girly girls" would be popular enough to warrant tags...
I want to reminds you that the vast majority of the earth's population are quite fond of girls that are girly, and boys that are boyish.
They are not at all as interested in stuff like scat_smearing or hyper_inflation, so how come those tags are allowed to be on this website but something as simple as a tag for people that like boys that are boyish or girls that are girlish is not warranted?

bertil2 said:
I want to reminds you that the vast majority of the earth's population are quite fond of girls that are girly, and boys that are boyish[...] but something as simple as a tag for people that like boys that are boyish or girls that are girlish is not warranted?

wait... what do you mean "girly girls" and "boyish boys", here? do you just mean, like, "conventionally attractive" because I'm not sure I'd really describe what I think is currently considered a conventionally attractive man or woman would be what I'd call "boyish" or "girly" respectively. could you possibly show some examples?

_{also, I'm assuming that first bit was a bit hyperbolic, but either way: I kinda doubt that there is any coherently defined set that contains men who are attractive to a majority of male-attracted people, and the same for women and female-attracted people. maybe a plurality, but the sheer vastness of diffrences in what exactly people find sexually attractive across individuals, let alone cultures, makes me very doubtful of the existence of any type of, like, true ideal male/female form like this.}

dba_afish said:
wait... what do you mean "girly girls" and "boyish boys", here? do you just mean, like, "conventionally attractive" because I'm not sure I'd really describe what I think is currently considered a conventionally attractive man or woman would be what I'd call "boyish" or "girly" respectively. could you possibly show some examples?

_{also, I'm assuming that first bit was a bit hyperbolic, but either way: I kinda doubt that there is any coherently defined set that contains men who are attractive to a majority of male-attracted people, and the same for women and female-attracted people. maybe a plurality, but the sheer vastness of diffrences in what exactly people find sexually attractive across individuals, let alone cultures, makes me very doubtful of the existence of any type of, like, true ideal male/female form like this.}

At the end of the original post, they listed some artists as examples

nin10dope said:
At the end of the original post, they listed some artists as examples

I somehow missed that, my eyes were much more drawn to the code block with the dictionary definition, I guess.

taking a glance at those examples, especially the last one, I'm thinking the tag they're looking for exists and it might just be young or adolescent...

dba_afish said:
wait... what do you mean "girly girls" and "boyish boys", here? do you just mean, like, "conventionally attractive" because I'm not sure I'd really describe what I think is currently considered a conventionally attractive man or woman would be what I'd call "boyish" or "girly" respectively. could you possibly show some examples?

_{also, I'm assuming that first bit was a bit hyperbolic, but either way: I kinda doubt that there is any coherently defined set that contains men who are attractive to a majority of male-attracted people, and the same for women and female-attracted people. maybe a plurality, but the sheer vastness of diffrences in what exactly people find sexually attractive across individuals, let alone cultures, makes me very doubtful of the existence of any type of, like, true ideal male/female form like this.}

No no I don't mean "conveniently attractive". I mean literally what the word means. Boys who are boyish, men who are boyish, you could even have ferals or old men who are boyish. Boyish does not mean Tomboy, it means boylike. Being a male does not exclude being boyish, it is BASED on male behavior. However being a man does not mean you are inherently boyish either, which is why we have femboys, and baras, and manly men etc. I want the Boyish tag to not be exclusive to Tomboys, so that I can search for male characters that look boyish. As in they look youthful, a little mischievous, a little sporty, they look cute. This is a trait that can extend to not just young boys, but older boys as well and to girls even though it is based on younger boys.

By girly girls I mean feminine girls. Girls who like traditionally cute and girly things. They like pink, they like horses, they're cute and gentle and sweet, or submissive and like to be taken care of. That's characteristics we think of as inherently belonging to cute girls, but it can be applied to others as well.

My point being here is that neither of these tags mean JUST Tomboy or Femboy, and it REALLY sucks for me that isn't particularly interested in tomboys that I am not allowed to search for characters that look boylike because that tag has been hijacked by a tag that doesn't even need it. Tomboys and Femboys are already incredibly popular, you don't need the Boyish and Girly tags to redirect to those tags because Boyish and Girly would have a lot better use as descriptive tags for all the other things they can also be applied to. But right now, I can't search for the thing I find attractive other than randomly stumbling across it while searching for other things and I find that incredibly annoying.

bertil2 said:
boyish boys

My brother, you would be a lot more helpful if you used any words other than forms of boy and girl for descriptions.

dba_afish said:
I somehow missed that, my eyes were much more drawn to the code block with the dictionary definition, I guess.

taking a glance at those examples, especially the last one, I'm thinking the tag they're looking for exists and it might just be young or adolescent...

No, I am not looking for "young" or "adolescent" because those tags does not imply boyish or girlish. Those tags do not exclude tomboys or femboys, and those tags do not allow me to search for an image that has both a boyish boy and a femboy in it, and it wouldn't allow me to search for images with a girly girl and a tomboy in the same image.

I want Boyish and Girly as DISCRIPTIVE tags. I do not want them to redirect to Tomboy and Femboy, because that is factually incorrect and it makes me unable to find art describing the thing I like. And not, it is not the same as just "young" or "child".

nin10dope said:
My brother, you would be a lot more helpful if you used any words other than forms of boy and girl for descriptions.

I'm just not understanding how a person doesn't know what a boy or a girl is, and I even provided images of a character that is extremely boyish and two artists that are extremely fond of drawing boys and young men looking very boyish.

So uuuuh. Imagine a tomboy. Ok?
Now imagine the tomboy has a dick, and a flat chest. That's a boy. That's a boyish boy. That's what I want.
Now. Imagine a femboy. Now imagine the femboy has a vagina and breasts instead of a penis. That's a girl, that's a girl that acts and looks girlish.

I am extremely frustrated the tags redirect to these tags instead of working correctly as descriptive tags so people like me who like those descriptions of things can find art of things I like rather than being redirected to something I don't particularly care about.

bertil2 said:
I'm just not understanding how a person doesn't know what a boy or a girl is, and I even provided images of a character that is extremely boyish and two artists that are extremely fond of drawing boys and young men looking very boyish.

So uuuuh. Imagine a tomboy. Ok?
Now imagine the tomboy has a dick, and a flat chest. That's a boy. That's a boyish boy. That's what I want.

Now. Imagine a femboy. Now imagine the femboy has a vagina and breasts instead of a penis. That's a girl, that's a girl that acts and looks girlish.

you are describing a male,

this feels like asking for moistened water,

funkwolfie said:
you are describing a male,

this feels like asking for moistened water,

No, I am describing a boy, Being a male does not inherently mean you look and act boyish and can always be inherently described as boyish. I'm sure the many transgender people here would be furious if they heard you imply that.

bertil2 said:
I'm sure the many transgender people here would be furious if they heard you imply that.

Don't.

bertil2 said:
No, I am describing a boy, Being a male does not inherently mean you look and act boyish and can always be inherently described as boyish. I'm sure the many transgender people here would be furious if they heard you imply that.

Don't try to paint me as transphobic mate. Thats like trying to say I hate opossums, it just doesnt make sense if you know me

funkwolfie said:
you are describing a male,

this feels like asking for moistened water,

To illustrate my point better, let me fetch you some more examples.
This is a boyish boy
https://e621.net/posts/5537743?q=manmosu_marimo+male

The pig in this image is boyish, the adolescent in this image is npt
https://e621.net/posts/5206980?q=manmosu_marimo+male

the fox boy in this image is a femboy, the adolescent is manly
https://e621.net/posts/5649186?q=young_male

both the male and the female adolescent in this image are boyish
https://e621.net/posts/5681218?q=tomboy

the vast majority of tags on young male are boyish, because boyish literally means "youthful and sporty and mischievious like a young male" but it does not mean "young male". The "Ish" part is important. Boy-ISH. Like a boy, a boy can be like a boy, but a girl can be like a boy, or an older male can be like a boy. Boy-LIKE.
https://e621.net/posts?tags=young_male+

This is si_ra_ta_ma, one of my favorite artists. He draws adolescents, that have boyish appearances. They aren't boys, they are too old to be boys (most of them anyway). However they look cute, youthful and rugged like boys. He draws boyish guys. I want to be able to search for characters that look boyish, EVEN when they are not young men, or when they are not women, or when they ARE women but still gives the appearance of being more boylike.
https://e621.net/posts?tags=si_ra_ta_ma3+

nin10dope said:
Don't.

I'm just saying that if this is a website that truly values diversity, then we shouldn't exclude people who like boys to look like boys, and we should also not assume that just because something is male it needs to be described as being inherently manly because clearly there are a lot of people with penises who do not want to be described as "boyish".

I think I understand what OP is saying here. Do these examples help?

"Boyish" males:

post #2543442
post #3015630
post #5294056
post #3850375
post #5075841

donkdewd said:
I think I understand what OP is saying here. Do these examples help?

"Boyish" males:

post #2543442
post #3015630
post #5294056
post #3850375
post #5075841

Yes absolutely, Max from Gooftroop is a perfect example actually.
Though I might just be biased because I grew up with the show hehe

donkdewd said:
I think I understand what OP is saying here. Do these examples help?

"Boyish" males:

Nooooo not Max Goof xD

bertil2 said:
I'm just saying that if this is a website that truly values diversity, then we shouldn't exclude people who like boys to look like boys, and we should also not assume that just because something is male it needs to be described as being inherently manly because clearly there are a lot of people with penises who do not want to be described as "boyish".

exclude people who like boys to look like boys wat
s male it needs to be described as being inherently manly actually saying the other way around with boyish
people with penises who do not want to be described as "boyish", yea no shit you describe those people by most of the time transfem, you wouldnt describe them as male eithers

bertil2 said:
I'm just saying that if this is a website that truly values diversity, then we shouldn't exclude people who like boys to look like boys, and we should also not assume that just because something is male it needs to be described as being inherently manly because clearly there are a lot of people with penises who do not want to be described as "boyish".

exclude people who like boys to look like boys wat
s male it needs to be described as being inherently manly actually saying the other way around with boyish
people with penises who do not want to be described as "boyish", yea no shit you describe those people by most of the time transfem, you wouldnt describe them as male either

bertil2 said:
To illustrate my point better, let me fetch you some more examples.
This is a boyish boy
https://e621.net/posts/5537743?q=manmosu_marimo+male

The pig in this image is boyish, the adolescent in this image is npt
https://e621.net/posts/5206980?q=manmosu_marimo+male

the fox boy in this image is a femboy, the adolescent is manly
https://e621.net/posts/5649186?q=young_male

both the male and the female adolescent in this image are boyish
https://e621.net/posts/5681218?q=tomboy

the vast majority of tags on young male are boyish, because boyish literally means "youthful and sporty and mischievious like a young male" but it does not mean "young male". The "Ish" part is important. Boy-ISH. Like a boy, a boy can be like a boy, but a girl can be like a boy, or an older male can be like a boy. Boy-LIKE.
https://e621.net/posts?tags=young_male+

This is si_ra_ta_ma, one of my favorite artists. He draws adolescents, that have boyish appearances. They aren't boys, they are too old to be boys (most of them anyway). However they look cute, youthful and rugged like boys. He draws boyish guys. I want to be able to search for characters that look boyish, EVEN when they are not young men, or when they are not women, or when they ARE women but still gives the appearance of being more boylike.
https://e621.net/posts?tags=si_ra_ta_ma3+

all of those are just generic looking males (did not look at any with the young tag cause personal reasaons)

bertil2 said:
Yes absolutely, Max from Gooftroop is a perfect example actually.
Though I might just be biased because I grew up with the show hehe

so sporty?

I think another word I'd associate a lot wish Boyish is "bratty" sorta.
Well for the most part, that's the kinda boyish I like the most even though there's a lot of docile boys as well I suppose.

But like... Duwey, Huey and Louie comes to mind, and Bart Simpson, and Riley from Boondocks. Absolute brats, very boyish. Any characters that has kinda the same air as those kind of characters, is what I'd describe as Boyish even if they're adolescent men or women.

funkwolfie said:
so sporty?

Sorta yeah, but not inherently fond of sports (though it often comes with the territory).

nin10dope said:
Nooooo not Max Goof xD

I'll always slip a Goof in.

post #2403093

funkwolfie said:
so sporty?

Nah, more like "masculine coded" + youthful, if you ask me.

bertil2 said:
I think another word I'd associate a lot wish Boyish is "bratty" sorta.
Well for the most part, that's the kinda boyish I like the most even though there's a lot of docile boys as well I suppose.

But like... Duwey, Huey and Louie comes to mind, and Bart Simpson, and Riley from Boondocks. Absolute brats, very boyish. Any characters that has kinda the same air as those kind of characters, is what I'd describe as Boyish even if they're adolescent men or women.

I agree with these character examples. We're vibing.

donkdewd said:
I'll always slip a Goof in.

post #2403093

Nah, more like "masculine coded" + youthful, if you ask me.

I mean 99% of those images he said yes to are just "children doing sports"

funkwolfie said:
exclude people who like boys to look like boys wat
s male it needs to be described as being inherently manly actually saying the other way around with boyish
people with penises who do not want to be described as "boyish", yea no shit you describe those people by most of the time transfem, you wouldnt describe them as male eithers

But what if they wanted to be described as boyish?
I find it very flattering to be called that after all. I just think if something looks boyish, why shouldn't we be able to tag it as looking boyish?
I mean if something looks like a girl despite being a boy we can tag it as a femboy, but why can't I tag a man who looks like a boy as being boyish when that perfectly describes their appearance and gives other people looking for that a good idea that this image might be for them?

donkdewd said:
I'll always slip a Goof in.

post #2403093

Nah, more like "masculine coded" + youthful, if you ask me.

Yeah, that's pretty accurate.

Man I gotta admit it was harder to explain this than I thought it would be. I guess I've never really sat down and tried to literally define what the word means rather than just thinking "oh like a boy of course, duh".

bertil2 said:
But what if they wanted to be described as boyish?
I find it very flattering to be called that after all. I just think if something looks boyish, why shouldn't we be able to tag it as looking boyish?
I mean if something looks like a girl despite being a boy we can tag it as a femboy, but why can't I tag a man who looks like a boy as being boyish when that perfectly describes their appearance and gives other people looking for that a good idea that this image might be for them?

because in popular use boyish refers to tomboys not Males being male.

but why can't I tag a man who looks like a boy as being boyish when that perfectly describes their appearance

because its bloat, and as you can see here, very few people know what in the world you mean by "boyish boy, I still don't understand because thats to me is tagging an image of Water as "Moist" because a male (excluding femboys) are inherently boyish,

https://e621.net/forum_topics/56644

funkwolfie said:
I mean 99% of those images he said yes to are just "children doing sports"

I was going to look up male characters tagged with the word "brat" to give you a good idea, only to have my hopes and dreams cruelly ripped away from me upon the realization that this website doesn't have a "brat" tag either.

But yeah.
If they're male, and they look like a damn brat... that's boyish. If they're playing sports, sure. Lots of brats like sports. But they also like playing pranks, or being smug, or being rude and cute.

funkwolfie said:
because in popular use boyish refers to tomboys not Males being male.
because its bloat, and as you can see here, very few people know what in the world you mean by "boyish boy, I still don't understand because thats to me is tagging an image of Water as "Moist" because a male (excluding femboys) are inherently boyish,

https://e621.net/forum_topics/56644

Only on this website, in popular use in the real world Boyish literally mean anything boylike. That's why I hate that it automatically directs to Tomboy. Lots of things can be boyish, men can absolutely be boyish WE LITERALLY INVENTED IT. The tag is imo useless redirecting to Tomboy because Tomboy is already a popular tag and we don't need to make the Boyish tag redirect people to make people find it easier... it's already very easy to find.

You know what's not easy to find on this website?
Boyish adolescent men. Bratty boys. Images of both bratty boys and femboys together. Because we lack a proper tag to describe those characters. That's what I want.

I would be sorta fine with Brat/Bratty being a unisex word for boyish but I think in general people would have a lot more use for Boyish and Girly being general descriptive tags. I really don't see any good reason why they shouldn't be, they are very good at describing things that are girly or boyish no matter if it's a male or a female.

funkwolfie said:
because in popular use boyish refers to tomboys not Males being male.
because its bloat, and as you can see here, very few people know what in the world you mean by "boyish boy, I still don't understand because thats to me is tagging an image of Water as "Moist" because a male (excluding femboys) are inherently boyish,

https://e621.net/forum_topics/56644

We have a million damn bloat tags why do you refuse this specific descriptive tag that people have used for thousands of years or describe things?
Boyish means like an immature/youthful male adult. That's the definition of the world. It does not mean "like a human man", it does not mean "like a woman who acts like a man". It means "ANYTHING that is like an immature/youthful male adult". I want this as a descriptive tag. This would not be bloat, it would make me find things I like on this website easier. If you want to get rid of actual bloat, go and clean up the countless femboy tags.

Also I strongly disagree that all men that are not femboys are inherently boyish. No. More often than not they are Manly. They adult, stoic, mature.
They are dependable, they are muscular and strong, or maybe they're even old and cranky. They are NOT inherently boyish.

Here's what I think should happen:

Boyish should become its own independent descriptive tag. Boyish does not ALWAYS mean Tomboy, but Tomboy always imply Boyish.

Girly should become its own independent descriptive tag, Girly does not ALWAYS mean Femboy, but Femboy always imply Girly.

bertil2 said:
We have a million damn bloat tags why do you refuse this specific descriptive tag that people have used for thousands of years or describe things?
Boyish means like an immature/youthful male adult. That's the definition of the world. It does not mean "like a human man", it does not mean "like a woman who acts like a man". It means "ANYTHING that is like an immature/youthful male adult". I want this as a descriptive tag. This would not be bloat, it would make me find things I like on this website easier. If you want to get rid of actual bloat, go and clean up the countless femboy tags.

Also I strongly disagree that all men that are not femboys are inherently boyish. No. More often than not they are Manly. They adult, stoic, mature.
They are dependable, they are muscular and strong, or maybe they're even old and cranky. They are NOT inherently boyish.

We have a million damn bloat tags why do you refuse this specific descriptive tag that people have used for thousands of years or describe things?
Source?

bertil2 said:
Here's what I think should happen:

Boyish should become it's own independent descriptive tag. Boyish does not ALWAYS mean Tomboy, but Tomboy always imply Boyish.

Girly should become its own independent descriptive tag, Girly does not ALWAYS mean Femboy, but Femboy always imply Girly.

then do one of these https://e621.net/tag_implication_request/new or https://e621.net/bulk_update_requests/new and let people vote on it

funkwolfie said:
then do one of these https://e621.net/tag_implication_request/new or https://e621.net/bulk_update_requests/new and let people vote on it

but I dont think it going to pass, i mean some of your examples don't even look like each other, you describe boyish as althetic build and then also provided an image to a chubby furry in a school uniform

funkwolfie said:
We have a million damn bloat tags why do you refuse this specific descriptive tag that people have used for thousands of years or describe things?
Source?

Source, the literal definition of boyish
https://www.google.com/search?q=definition+of+boyish

boyish
/ˈbɔɪɪʃ/
adjective
adjective: boyish

    of, like, or characteristic of a male child or young man.
    "his boyish charm"

And how the hell can the tag be "bloat" when I've given you countless examples of how it would be of extreme use to me and people like me who enjoy Boyish aesthetics on men. Why are you so extremely opposed to other people having a better time on this website? Why do you dislike the idea of people having an easier time finding things they like on e621?

bertil2 said:
Source, the literal definition of boyish
https://www.google.com/search?q=definition+of+boyish

boyish
/ˈbɔɪɪʃ/
adjective
adjective: boyish

    of, like, or characteristic of a male child or young man.
    "his boyish charm"

And how the hell can the tag be "bloat" when I've given you countless examples of how it would be of extreme use to me and people like me who enjoy Boyish aesthetics on men. Why are you so extremely opposed to other people having a better time on this website? Why do you dislike the idea of people having an easier time finding things they like on e621?

then I reiterate
then do one of these https://e621.net/tag_implication_request/new or https://e621.net/bulk_update_requests/new and let people vote on it

funkwolfie said:
but I dont think it going to pass, i mean some of your examples don't even look like each other, you describe boyish as althetic build and then also provided an image to a chubby furry in a school uniform

I never described Boyish as athletic build, I described it as "reminiscent of a youthful male" or "bratty".
Sporty does not inherently mean Boyish, even if many boys often do like sports and sports often being seen as a boyish activity as a result.

I am not looking for athletic men. If it was that easy I would have already had the tags I needed, but I don't want that. I want cute youthful looking men or bratty looking men or bratty looking boys. I would also accept Bratty as a fairly accurate new tag for what I want, but it would not be AS accurate as Boyish and it would mean people who like Girly Girls would still have the same problem I have currently with finding boyish boys.

funkwolfie said:
then I reiterate
then do one of these https://e621.net/tag_implication_request/new or https://e621.net/bulk_update_requests/new and let people vote on it

How would I format the post, I am not extremely sure how this works?

bertil2 said:
I never described Boyish as athletic build, I described it as "reminiscent of a youthful male" or "bratty".
Sporty does not inherently mean Boyish, even if many boys often do like sports and sports often being seen as a boyish activity as a result.

I am not looking for athletic men. If it was that easy I would have already had the tags I needed, but I don't want that. I want cute youthful looking men or bratty looking men or bratty looking boys. I would also accept Bratty as a fairly accurate new tag for what I want, but it would not be AS accurate as Boyish and it would mean people who like Girly Girls would still have the same problem I have currently with finding boyish boys.

Then Do a bur request and request it be unaliased, us going back and forth aint gonna change a damn thing

funkwolfie said:
Then Do a bur request and request it be unaliased, us going back and forth aint gonna change a damn thing

Fair enough. If I can figure out how I need to format the request post I'll do it

donkdewd said:
I think I understand what OP is saying here. Do these examples help?

"Boyish" males:

post #2543442
post #3015630
post #5294056
post #3850375
post #5075841

these are literally all just young_male.

Maybe I wasn't overthinking in my first response lol. To me boyishness is immature masculinity, which can be a male body type or an age group like many of the examples have shown, but it can also be an aesthetic/fashion style or behaviour. I think it's way too broad to be one tag, I think it can be a very arbitrary and subjective, and I do think it would absolutely be bloated. In my eyes boyish is just something everyone who identifies as a man has done before and that some people who aren't men might also do. A man who is manly in appearance may still be boyish in the way he acts and vice versa. I think in any setting where you tag what you see, a person could tag just about anything as boyish if they think something is boyish about it - a teenager, a fully grown man screaming "get the fuck out of my room I'm playing Minecraft", a girl wearing boxer shorts, a boy mooning a storefront, avoiding the colour pink like it's the plague, a twink, a man having perfect facial grooming, accusing a girl of having cooties - all of those things could be considered boyish. Anyone who searches for boyish is going to go in with their unique idea on what it means and the broadness of the category means that most people will not be satisfied with what they see.

I still think that boyish and girly are not exclusive to one thing like they're currently aliased to, but I also don't think they have hard enough definitions for them to be regular tags either, especially seeing how this has panned out

dba_afish said:
these are literally all just young_male.

Not really an argument against the tag, in my opinion? You could post five images of tomboys and say "they're literally all female", which would not be a reason to invalidate the tomboy tag. You're not really engaging with the discussion (which I don't actually blame you for, since this thread is a hot mess).

pookashifts said:
Maybe I wasn't overthinking in my first response lol. To me boyishness is immature masculinity, which can be a male body type or an age group like many of the examples have shown, but it can also be an aesthetic/fashion style or behaviour. I think it's way too broad to be one tag, I think it can be a very arbitrary and subjective, and I do think it would absolutely be bloated. In my eyes boyish is just something everyone who identifies as a man has done before and that some people who aren't men might also do. A man who is manly in appearance may still be boyish in the way he acts and vice versa. I think in any setting where you tag what you see, a person could tag just about anything as boyish if they think something is boyish about it - a teenager, a fully grown man screaming "get the fuck out of my room I'm playing Minecraft", a girl wearing boxer shorts, a boy mooning a storefront, avoiding the colour pink like it's the plague, a twink, a man having perfect facial grooming, accusing a girl of having cooties - all of those things could be considered boyish. Anyone who searches for boyish is going to go in with their unique idea on what it means and the broadness of the category means that most people will not be satisfied with what they see.

I still think that boyish and girly are not exclusive to one thing like they're currently aliased to, but I also don't think they have hard enough definitions for them to be regular tags either, especially seeing how this has panned out

I think you are right, and I agree this thread demonstrates this forum is maybe not ready for more gender subtlety. A "boyish" male is a concept that might be too fluid and too subjective to work, especially considering some of the antagonism to the proposal that's being expressed here. I'm still going to vote to chip away at some of the mistakes that I think have been made (like aliasing away "twink" to a gendered tag) but I don't really think there is any hope we'll reach a new consensus on reforming all of the gender expression tags at once.

https://e621.net/posts?tags=milkybot+
More cute boyish boys (but adolescent and adult rather than shota).

Damn, I wrote a very long post in that topic but I get the error message:

Error: Forum topic ID is invalid, Error: Forum topic must exist; Consequent tag must not be aliased to another tag (create implication tomboy -> boyish), Error: Forum topic must exist; Consequent tag must not be aliased to another tag (create implication femboy -> girly)

donkdewd said:
[...]the mistakes that I think have been made (like aliasing away "twink" to a gendered tag)

wait, what do you mean by this?

is twink... not a gendered concept? can a girl be a twink?

Alright, it's 6am here so I really gotta go to bed. Since I'm getting an error message when I'm trying to send my post.. I'm just going to put all I wrote here and either someone else can try to make an attempt if they're feeling especially helpful.. or I'll have to give it a try another time.

Title: Girls can be Girly, Boys can be Boyish.
Script:

unalias boyish -> tomboy
unalias girly -> femboy
implicate tomboy -> boyish
implicate femboy -> girly

Reason:

I as a bisexual, am really annoyed by my inability to find a proper tag that lets me search for cute "boyish" (masculine coded/bratty + youthful) males.

Currently the "Boyish" descriptor automatically redirects to "Tomboy", and the "Girly" descriptor automatically redirects to "Femboy".
I believe this causes a major issue with the intent behind these two descriptors.
Boyish in the English language per definition does not always mean Tomboy, but Tomboy per definition always imply Boyish.
Girly in the English language per definition does not always mean Femboy, but Femboy per definition always imply Girly.

The actual definition of Boyish according to the Oxford dictionary is
of, like, or characteristic of a male child or young man.
"his boyish charm"
And the actual definition of Girly according to the Oxford dictionary is
characteristic of or appropriate to a girl or young woman.
"girly pink paper"

Now the biggest reason I want this change is just because currently, I can not accurately search for and tag boyish looking males on e621.
I am very fond of males that are youthful and cute and a bit bratty. I also am quite fond of the contrast of cute boyish boys getting fucked by femboys, or yuri with a girly girl and a tomboy. These things are very hard to search for with the current system where girly > femboy and boyish > tomboy. No I do not want to look at girls when I search for "boyish", I want to see artists like manmosu_marimo, si_ra_ta_ma3 and milkybot, and I want to see characters like c.j_(animal_crossing) and max_goof and Huey, Duwey and Louie. I wanna be able to search for cute bratty and youthful boys. Not masculine men, not bara men, and absolutely not tomboys. I imagine there's probably plenty of people that would want something similar for the girly tag, and per definition not everything on this planet that can been seen as "boyish" is absolutely a girl.

Boyish and Girly are descriptor words, and I think they would work much better as tags people can use to describe things that look girly or boyish whether they are male or female. I think both Femboy and Tomboy are already wildly popular tags so people don't particularly need any more help finding those tags with a redirect.. but do you know what I need help with? Finding cute boyish boys with a proper tag that lets me look up images for that specific character trait. Right now those two words are just laying around these collecting dust, not being of real use to anyone. Please let me use these words as descriptors for things I like.

(I was considering asking for Bratty as a unisex tag for youthful smug little piece of shit but ultimately I think the mischievous tag still fulfills that function well enough)

dba_afish said:
wait, what do you mean by this?

is twink... not a gendered concept? can a girl be a twink?

I was thinking of active BUR 40593 which I also linked to in my first post on this thread. You voted on it like 16 months ago... it's been a whole saga.

bertil2 said:
Damn, I wrote a very long post in that topic but I get the error message:

Error: Forum topic ID is invalid, Error: Forum topic must exist; Consequent tag must not be aliased to another tag (create implication tomboy -> boyish), Error: Forum topic must exist; Consequent tag must not be aliased to another tag (create implication femboy -> girly)

I think you have to propose removing the aliases from tags like "boyish" first, then create a second step with implications like tomboy to boyish. FYI, I think you should read this thread first so you can see how we got here and understand the arguments that were made at the time - 38587 - good luck!

bertil2 said:
Alright, it's 6am here so I really gotta go to bed. Since I'm getting an error message when I'm trying to send my post.. I'm just going to put all I wrote here and either someone else can try to make an attempt if they're feeling especially helpful.. or I'll have to give it a try another time.

Title: Girls can be Girly, Boys can be Boyish.
Script:

unalias boyish -> tomboy
unalias girly -> femboy
implicate tomboy -> boyish
implicate femboy -> girly

Reason:

-vote

bertil2 said:
Alright, it's 6am here so I really gotta go to bed. Since I'm getting an error message when I'm trying to send my post.. I'm just going to put all I wrote here and either someone else can try to make an attempt if they're feeling especially helpful.. or I'll have to give it a try another time.

Title: Girls can be Girly, Boys can be Boyish.
Script:

unalias boyish -> tomboy
unalias girly -> femboy
implicate tomboy -> boyish
implicate femboy -> girly

Reason:

Femboy was literally just moved out of girly, and this really seems like masculine and feminine by objectively worse names

donkdewd said:
I'll always slip a Goof in.

post #2403093

Nah, more like "masculine coded" + youthful, if you ask me.

I just wanna respond to this one to refer to this part of the conversation.
It seems like what the user is actually looking for is a particular art-style/genre, not unlike bara.
Unfortunately, bishonen is aliased away (probably because unlike bara, there wouldn't be a giant wave of upset people wanting a way to hide a specific phenotype)

I don't know the equivalent for girls, but the thing he's trying his damnedest to describe is literally just bishonen

Edit: Also if I have to read boyish another time I'm going to have an aneurism

nin10dope said:
I don't know the equivalent for girls, but the thing he's trying his damnedest to describe is literally just bishonen

Edit: Also if I have to read boyish another time I'm going to have an aneurism

OP said "Yes absolutely, Max from Gooftroop is a perfect example actually." The idea of Bishonen Max is very funny to me.

Anyway, this thread gave me brain damage too.

"This Whole Thing Smacks Of Gender," i holler as i overturn my uncle's barbeque grill and turn the 4th of July into the 4th of Shit

nin10dope said:
I don't know the equivalent for girls, but the thing he's trying his damnedest to describe is literally just bishonen

Edit: Also if I have to read boyish another time I'm going to have an aneurism

Maybe I'm old and 'bishonen' means something else now, but this concept is not that. This concept is more like 'characters who would look most at home in the boys section of the 90s Toys R Us catalog.' It's the hyper-gendered boy's section of baby clothes. Sports ball! Truck! Dinosaur! Camo! Ball cap! T-shirt! Blue! Treehouse! No girls allowed!

regsmutt said:
Maybe I'm old and 'bishonen' means something else now, but this concept is not that. This concept is more like 'characters who would look most at home in the boys section of the 90s Toys R Us catalog.' It's the hyper-gendered boy's section of baby clothes. Sports ball! Truck! Dinosaur! Camo! Ball cap! T-shirt! Blue! Treehouse! No girls allowed!

Sorry man you must be getting on in years because the literal translation of bishonen is beautiful youth (male)

nin10dope said:
Sorry man you must be getting on in years because the literal translation of bishonen is beautiful youth (male)

Yeah, no, that article is using the definition I'm familiar with. I do not see how "a young man of androgynous beauty" fits this concept. Bishonen is closer to 'pretty boy' than this.

regsmutt said:
Yeah, no, that article is using the definition I'm familiar with. I do not see how "a young man of androgynous beauty" fits this concept. Bishonen is closer to 'pretty boy' than this.

a young man of androgynous beauty
pretty boy
Man you must be a brain surgeon with how precisely you're splitting hairs now lmao