Remove implication furred_dragon -> dragon

As noted in the furry diffusion discord server, furred_dragon ends up implying scalie through a chain of implications, even though scalies (generally) have scales (there are counter-examples, but are primarily non-draconic, so it may be better to treat those situations as manual tags and not automatic ones).
Additionally, furred_wyvern does not similarly implicate wyvern.

Technical-Grid said:
Yeah i think we should treat furred_dragon and dragon as two separate entities.
After all when you think about mythological_scalie, the typical scaled dragons come to mind

unimply furred_dragon -> dragon

This would be a move to match a similar request on e6AI

The tag isn't used for creatures with scales, it's used for creatures with specifically reptilian characteristics regardless of whether they have scales or not. This is all explained in the scalie wiki page, and should be pretty clear given furred_scalie and feathered_scalie exist

The bulk update request #11234 is pending approval.

remove implication furred_dragon (34278) -> dragon (383894)

Reason: Formalizing the request (votes are convenient gauges)

I think honestly dragons shouldn't implicate scalie in the first place - dragons are not inherently reptilian, albeit many are, and many many many types of dragons found in folklore and across media are more mammalian, amphibian, or avian [as avian =/= scalie on this website]. Falkor looks more like a really long dog, for example.

The people pushing their Patreons for their Stable Diffusion outputs on your site are so funny. Like a sort of furry porn dropshipping scam.

The bulk update request #11236 is pending approval.

create implication furred_wyvern (41) -> wyvern (7801)

Reason: well, since it was brought up.

moonlit-comet said:
I think honestly dragons shouldn't implicate scalie in the first place - dragons are not inherently reptilian, albeit many are, and many many many types of dragons found in folklore and across media are more mammalian, amphibian, or avian [as avian =/= scalie on this website]. Falkor looks more like a really long dog, for example.

scalie is, in all honesty, kind of a nonsense term; it's like, all reptiles excluding modern avians (all prehistoric dinos still get in, even the ones that really look like birds) and several fictional species that are based on those species, and then also salamanders sometimes, and probably a few other things.

dba_afish said:
scalie is, in all honesty, kind of a nonsense term; it's like, all reptiles excluding modern avians (all prehistoric dinos still get in, even the ones that really look like birds) and several fictional species that are based on those species, and then also salamanders sometimes, and probably a few other things.

Basically any vertebrate that isn't an avian dinosaur [bird] or a mammal can be a scalie on this site. lol

moonlit-comet said:
Basically any vertebrate that isn't an avian dinosaur [bird] or a mammal can be a scalie on this site. lol

also generally not fish. most of the time, usually, I think.

oneohthrix said:
The people pushing their Patreons for their Stable Diffusion outputs on your site are so funny. Like a sort of furry porn dropshipping scam.

A fool and his money are easily parted.
Though hopefully, that won’t happen that much with the new rule banning the promotion of paywalled content.

draco18s said:
Remove implication furred_dragon -> dragon

That's not how you request an implication, please do so using the proper channels next time.

As noted in the furry diffusion discord server, furred_dragon ends up implying scalie through a chain of implications, even though scalies (generally) have scales (there are counter-examples, but are primarily non-draconic, so it may be better to treat those situations as manual tags and not automatic ones).

Whatever gets discussed on your Discord server has no bearing whatsoever on e621's tagging.

Scalie is used for anything with "reptilian features" and not necessarily "scales" (e.g., feathered_dinosaur).
If you want a tag that describes characters with scales, you should be using scales instead.

Since dragon is considered reptilian by default, it ends up being implied to furred_dragon, which is essentially any dragon covered in fur.
If it doesn't look like a dragon to begin with, maybe consider not tagging it as furred_dragon and resort to using something else more suitable.

Why even bother having your own tagging definitions if the entirety of your site is trained on our content? Absolute parity with our tagging scheme seems more efficient.

I guess integration between the two is purposefully kept at a distance though.

oneohthrix said:
Why even bother having your own tagging definitions if the entirety of your site is trained on our content? Absolute parity with our tagging scheme seems more efficient.

I guess integration between the two is purposefully kept at a distance though.

Saying it's trained on content has unpleasant implications

moonlit-comet said:
I think honestly dragons shouldn't implicate scalie in the first place - dragons are not inherently reptilian, albeit many are, and many many many types of dragons found in folklore and across media are more mammalian, amphibian, or avian [as avian =/= scalie on this website]. Falkor looks more like a really long dog, for example.

Pretty well said,
We have mythological tags and thats where it should be redirected. Dragons are mythos and we can make up whatever we want with it

thegreatwolfgang said:

Since dragon is considered reptilian by default

Could you please further elaborate on the reptilian features for example on this post?

https://e621.net/posts/2056103

The only dragon dragon we have is because we named that way is komodo dragon, is funny reptilian but its the only creature we have as named for dragon
otherwise its just references to dragon

thegreatwolfgang said:
Scalie is used for anything with "reptilian features" and not necessarily "scales" (e.g., feathered_dinosaur).
If you want a tag that describes characters with scales, you should be using scales instead.

Since dragon is considered reptilian by default, it ends up being implied to furred_dragon, which is essentially any dragon covered in fur.
If it doesn't look like a dragon to begin with, maybe consider not tagging it as furred_dragon and resort to using something else more suitable.

Not gonna lie, I find the vagueness of the scalie tag extremely odd. When searching scalie -scales it seems like the common features are something along the lines of:
-Has a thick tail (usually)
-Has a longish snout (sometimes)
-Has horns (sometimes)

Honestly, I'd be fascinated to hear from someone who uses this tag what they're looking for when searching it, as I find it so unspecific that I'd never even considered using it to search for anything.

edit:

denatural said:
Could you please further elaborate on the reptilian features for example on this post?

https://e621.net/posts/2056103

I swear, the thick tail is by far the most unifying characteristic, if scales aren't considered, which is kinda strange.

oneohthrix said:
The people pushing their Patreons for their Stable Diffusion outputs on your site are so funny. Like a sort of furry porn dropshipping scam.

You mean on e6ai? Which is not "my" site.
Because doing that is against the upload guidelines. For precisely the reason you just stated.

thegreatwolfgang said:
Whatever gets discussed on your Discord server has no bearing whatsoever on e621's tagging.

"It came up" -> I mentioned it to Jello -> Jello suggested making a BUR/Implication request.

moonlit-comet said:
I think honestly dragons shouldn't implicate scalie in the first place - dragons are not inherently reptilian, albeit many are, and many many many types of dragons found in folklore and across media are more mammalian, amphibian, or avian [as avian =/= scalie on this website]. Falkor looks more like a really long dog, for example.

I want to quote my own comment from not that while ago when someone asked what qualifies as a dragon.
This image pretty much sums up how lax things are. If it looks like dragon, it gets the dragon tag.

If you want something more specific, consider looking up the exact species tag (e.g., western_dragon, eastern_dragon, feathered_dragon, aquatic_dragon, etc.).

denatural said:
Could you please further elaborate on the reptilian features for example on this post?

https://e621.net/posts/2056103

General shape and features of the head (i.e., a combination of horned, snout, slit nostrils, long pointed ears, the typical ^.=.^ dragon snout face), winged, and that telltale dragon tail.
Essentially any anthro dragon without any fur or scales would look like that (see dragon anthro -feral -fur -scales).

quenir said:
Not gonna lie, I find the vagueness of the scalie tag extremely odd. When searching scalie -scales it seems like the common features are something along the lines of:
-Has a thick tail (usually)
-Has a longish snout (sometimes)
-Has horns (sometimes)

Honestly, I'd be fascinated to hear from someone who uses this tag what they're looking for when searching it, as I find it so unspecific that I'd never even considered using it to search for anything.

edit:
I swear, the thick tail is by far the most unifying characteristic, if scales aren't considered, which is kinda strange.

That thick eastern_dragon-like "paintbrush" tail carries a lot of weight. The scalie tag is meant to be very vague as it is everything reptilian (but not directly reptile) and the opposite of what the typical "furry" should look like.

draco18s said:
"It came up" -> I mentioned it to Jello -> Jello suggested making a BUR/Implication request.

You mentioned "as noted in the furry diffusion discord server" which made me assume a discussion regarding tagging took place outside of e621 or our own Discord server.

draco18s said:
This would be a move to match a similar request on e6AI

Is there any integration between e621 and e6AI whatsoever? Why do you guys have to manually align tag implications like dogs? Seems like it should be automated.

draco18s said:
"It came up" -> I mentioned it to Jello -> Jello suggested making a BUR/Implication request.

who?

dba_afish said:
who?

i would assume they're talking about jelloponies. they're an admin on the e6ai site i believe

thegreatwolfgang said:
I want to quote my own comment from not that while ago when someone asked what qualifies as a dragon.
This image pretty much sums up how lax things are. If it looks like dragon, it gets the dragon tag.

If you want something more specific, consider looking up the exact species tag (e.g., western_dragon, eastern_dragon, feathered_dragon, aquatic_dragon, etc.).

Like, say, furred_dragon? That's the problem. furred dragon -> dragon -> mythological_scalie -> scalie.

If the furred_dragon -> dragon isn't the problem, where do you suggest breaking it instead?

thegreatwolfgang said:
You mentioned "as noted in the furry diffusion discord server" which made me assume a discussion regarding tagging took place outside of e621 or our own Discord server.

Oh the conversation I had with Jello took place on the e6ai Discord server. I forwarded the comment from Furry Diffusion to there so that staff would see it and give input.

draco18s said:
Oh the conversation I had with Jello took place on the e6ai Discord server. I forwarded the comment from Furry Diffusion to there so that staff would see it and give input.

Based on the votes right now, I don't think the majority of us here on e621 see the problem.
I would hate to say the same now for the sister thread on e6ai since not many people voted yet.

Like, say, furred_dragon? That's the problem. furred dragon -> dragon -> mythological_scalie -> scalie.

If the furred_dragon -> dragon isn't the problem, where do you suggest breaking it instead?

It wouldn't make sense to break furred_dragon from dragon since they are essentially dragons with fur.
In which case, what are you are really arguing for is for dragon to be unimplied from scalie.

The reasons you have given so far are not very compelling since they do not make sense nor are they valid.

• "furred_dragon ends up implying scalie through a chain of implications, even though scalies (generally) have scales"
• Nope, scales is not a mandatory component for one to be considered scalie.
• "there are counter-examples, but are primarily non-draconic, so it may be better to treat those situations as manual tags and not automatic ones"
• Present said counter-examples and your definition of "non-draconic". If something is non-draconic, then it wouldn't be tagged as dragon according to TWYS now, would it?
• "Additionally, furred_wyvern does not similarly implicate wyvern."
• And? Was there a specific discussion asking for them to be split for the same reasons you have mentioned, or was it simply because nobody thought about implicating them yet?

thegreatwolfgang said:
Based on the votes right now, I don't think the majority of us here on e621 see the problem.
I would hate to say the same now for the sister thread on e6ai since not many people voted yet.

to be fair, commin' in hot with the "As noted in the furry diffusion discord server" probably didn't do the chances of success for the BUR any favours.

but also, everything else you said is also true.