The bulk update request #10973 is pending approval.

create implication mature_female (74082) -> middle-aged (0)
create implication mature_male (23142) -> middle-aged (0)
create implication mature_intersex (4005) -> middle-aged (0)
create implication mature_ambiguous (10) -> middle-aged (0)

Reason: The mature tag is invalid because it’s too ambiguous, but other age groups like child, young_adult, elderly, etc. have gender neutral parent tags, so I think it makes sense to have one for mature_* tags. The wiki defines mature as middle-aged, so that’s what I figured would work as a parent tag.

dreamscreep said:
young_adult

This tag looks both like a TWYS nightmare and ripe for misuse

I'm not inherently opposed to it, but god damn the mature_female tag needs to be cleaned up first and some real criteria set. The vast majority are some combination of large breasts, glasses, and 'being a mom' in lore. Even the wiki examples are like this:
post #3388967

Mature_male is an interesting comparison. It does seem to get heavily used for overweight and manly characters, but most of the characters there have some age lines on their faces. Greying hair is also common.

All of the age categories are a mess, honestly. I support more objective definitions, but agreeing on those definitions will likely be a project in and of itself.

regsmutt said:
I'm not inherently opposed to it, but god damn the mature_female tag needs to be cleaned up first and some real criteria set. The vast majority are some combination of large breasts, glasses, and 'being a mom' in lore.

I think a lot of these issues are caused by the fact that mature female is quite literally just renamed milf tag. People tag milf on whatever they feel like has milfy vibes, or is a mother they find sexually appealing, not realizing that it has been aliased to tag with much more strict definition (The amount of times I had to remove mature_female and female tags off gynomorph and herm art just because uploader tried to tag it as milf...)

I'm not sure about the term middle_aged but I think it's fair that mature has to go for the sake of ambiguity and misuse. Mature can more literally mean everyone that's past puberty and adolescence

ruppari said:
I think a lot of these issues are caused by the fact that mature female is quite literally just renamed milf tag.

well, not exactly, no. while mature_female was created as a replacement for milf it created so that there was a slightly more coherent definition compared to the old tag.

ruppari said:
I think a lot of these issues are caused by the fact that mature female is quite literally just renamed milf tag. People tag milf on whatever they feel like has milfy vibes, or is a mother they find sexually appealing, not realizing that it has been aliased to tag with much more strict definition (The amount of times I had to remove mature_female and female tags off gynomorph and herm art just because uploader tried to tag it as milf...)

Hm, perhaps changing that alias to invalid? But I do also see it getting applied to secretary/teacher/librarian type characters who I don't think necessarily are getting 'milf' mistags. It really does seem to mostly be a 'big boobs' tag.

tbh it sounds like you could just alias milf to milf_(lore) and reserve it to characters that are canonically mothers and/or pregananant (assuming there isn't a well-used mother_(lore) tag)

Can we also rename mature_<gender> to middle-aged_<gender>? Just full on replace every mature with middle aged? I think it's clearer wording. But yeah the tag is a mess too

nin10dope said:
(assuming there isn't a well-used mother_(lore) tag)

Mother_(lore) is technically supposed to just be a weird redundant copy of mother_and_child_(lore), only used when her child is in the image too, but in practice mother_(lore) -mother_and_child_(lore) has 6k results

nin10dope said:
tbh it sounds like you could just alias milf to milf_(lore) and reserve it to characters that are canonically mothers and/or pregananant (assuming there isn't a well-used mother_(lore) tag)

I don't think you can solve this problem by lorifying it. Lore is for what the artist of the artwork intends rather than the character canon

snpthecat said:
Lore is for what the artist of the artwork intends rather than the character canon

Nnnnot necessarily
At least for OC characters, lore is decided by who owns them
If we want to get really big-brained, one could argue that same point for all franchised characters like Loona or Toriel (to keep it more relevant)
TobyFox himself could show up and say that all Toriel art should have the Mother and Female lore tags
But that's just a silly hypothetical

And my idea of a milf_(lore) tag would only help with cleaning up mature_female and nothing else
I agree with Spaniel the Wanderer that we can keep the gendered versions of what would become middle_aged, cuz I think we do that with all age tags if it's relevant?

nin10dope said:
Nnnnot necessarily
At least for OC characters, lore is decided by who owns them
If we want to get really big-brained, one could argue that same point for all franchised characters like Loona or Toriel (to keep it more relevant)
TobyFox himself could show up and say that all Toriel art should have the Mother and Female lore tags

Lore tags are decided ultimately by the artist of a particular piece. If the artist doesn't say something, then it falls to the franchise/series. But even then, the lore tags have definitions that need to be adhered to, they're not free-for-all to apply just because the creator wants it tagged regardless. In the case of mother_(lore), it's supposed to only be applied when they're with their child, so if a post doesn't have their child, it doesn't fit the definition and doesn't apply regardless of who wants it to.

watsit said:
Lore tags are decided ultimately by the artist of a particular piece. If the artist doesn't say something, then it falls to the franchise/series. But even then, the lore tags have definitions that need to be adhered to, they're not free-for-all to apply just because the creator wants it tagged regardless. In the case of mother_(lore), it's supposed to only be applied when they're with their child, so if a post doesn't have their child, it doesn't fit the definition and doesn't apply regardless of who wants it to.

My b
Where was the groundwork for the Lore category posted? Cuz I definitely missed whenever the category came into being

nin10dope said:
Nnnnot necessarily
At least for OC characters, lore is decided by who owns them
If we want to get really big-brained, one could argue that same point for all franchised characters like Loona or Toriel (to keep it more relevant)
TobyFox himself could show up and say that all Toriel art should have the Mother and Female lore tags
But that's just a silly hypothetical

And my idea of a milf_(lore) tag would only help with cleaning up mature_female and nothing else
I agree with Spaniel the Wanderer that we can keep the gendered versions of what would become middle_aged, cuz I think we do that with all age tags if it's relevant?

Intent of the artist always overrules what the character owner says. It doesn't matter if Toby Fox says Toriel should always be tagged female_(lore), if someone draws a comic where Toriel is a bodybuilding cis man that's how that art is being tagged.

The problem with a milf_(lore) tag is that it could turn into a headcanon tag. Mature_female currently has this problem, and a lore tag just pushes it somewhere else. The things being tagged mature_female with no twys justification don't need a tag.

Yeah I was honestly riffing on what the idea of a lore tag would make sense in my brain, cuz that's usually how I've seen it be used