Just came across the forced_pleasure tag, and I'm not entirely sure what it's supposed to mean (there's no wiki description). Is it the same thing as forced_arousal or unwanted_arousal?
Topic: What exactly is "forced pleasure"?
Posted under Tag/Wiki Projects and Questions
beholding said:
Just came across the forced_pleasure tag, and I'm not entirely sure what it's supposed to mean (there's no wiki description). Is it the same thing as forced_arousal or unwanted_arousal?
I assume unwanted_arousal is for "I wish I wasn't so horny".
Forced_arousal is a bit messy. In theory, it means "something forces arousal on a character", but when a THING forces arousal, it's called an aphrodisiac, which is already a tag. So I've personally interpreted forced_arousal as a messy ad hoc solution for when the arousal is not forced by a physical "thing", such as being forced by a wish (post #5348174). That's how I've interpreted the tag anyways.
Forced_pleasure seems to basically be for rape, penis_milking, etc.. I'd recommend aliasing it to forced.
forced_arousal is, honestly, a bit of a mess. It's explicitly not meant to be tagged for rape, even though all other "forced" tags are used with rape. unwanted_arousal has no wiki description, so the difference is unclear.
I don't think forced_pleasure should be aliased to forced. Forced can exist without pleasure or intent to cause pleasure.
I think the difference between forced and unwanted arousal is 'someone doing it on purpose'. Forced_arousal sounds to me like it would involve some sort of mind control, sex pollen, or unwanted directed teasing. Unwanted_arousal would be like getting an undesired random boner in public. They overlap, but not 1:1
regsmutt said:
I think the difference between forced and unwanted arousal is 'someone doing it on purpose'. Forced_arousal sounds to me like it would involve some sort of mind control, sex pollen, or unwanted directed teasing. Unwanted_arousal would be like getting an undesired random boner in public. They overlap, but not 1:1
That's also what I would assume, but the wiki pages explicitly state that forced_arousal is to be used for all external forces except rape, and unwanted_arousal is for arousal due to rape. This doesn't make a lot of sense to me; I think it'd be reasonable to revise the wiki description to allow forced arousal to be tagged for rape.
beholding said:
That's also what I would assume, but the wiki pages explicitly state that forced_arousal is to be used for all external forces except rape, and unwanted_arousal is for arousal due to rape. This doesn't make a lot of sense to me; I think it'd be reasonable to revise the wiki description to allow forced arousal to be tagged for rape.
It makes some sense to me. forced_arousal is for something purposely arousing a character that doesn't want to be aroused, while unwanted_arousal is just being aroused when not wanting to be. rape doesn't necessarily intend to arouse the victim, it just happens because it's the body's reaction rather than the rapist trying to arouse them. Some forms of rape can involve forced arousal (e.g. if the rapist is trying to give a handjob or vaginal fingering to their victim to make them orgasm), but the victim simply having an erection or leaking vaginal fluids while being raped isn't inherently forced_arousal.
watsit said:
It makes some sense to me. forced_arousal is for something purposely arousing a character that doesn't want to be aroused, while unwanted_arousal is just being aroused when not wanting to be. rape doesn't necessarily intend to arouse the victim, it just happens because it's the body's reaction rather than the rapist trying to arouse them. Some forms of rape can involve forced arousal (e.g. if the rapist is trying to give a handjob or vaginal fingering to their victim to make them orgasm), but the victim simply having an erection or leaking vaginal fluids while being raped isn't inherently forced_arousal.
I can see this reasoning, but it's a bit unintuitive to me (and probably to a lot of users), especially since most forced tags are related to rape. In terms of tag usability, I also think that "getting a random boner in public" and "getting a boner from being raped" are wildly different scenarios that people probably don't want to overlap. You could search unwanted_arousal -rape, but it's not obvious that you'd need to.
Admittedly, it doesn't help that both unwanted_arousal and forced_arousal are extremely undertagged (only about 120 posts combined).
Successfully jerking someone to cumpletion without their approval
Arousal is the mental step before pleasure, at least to my interpretation
So to separate them in one post, it doesn't matter if the recipient thinks what's happening is hot or not, they just don't want to feel good from it
Like stealth jerking your boyfriend in church or something lmao
All of these slightly different tags are another case of you won't really get it unless you're into it or hyper aware of it. Kinda
nin10dope said:
Successfully jerking someone to cumpletion without their approval
Arousal is the mental step before pleasure, at least to my interpretation
So to separate them in one post, it doesn't matter if the recipient thinks what's happening is hot or not, they just don't want to feel good from it
Like stealth jerking your boyfriend in church or something lmao
Isn't that forced_orgasm? I feel like this is all too granular, especially for a visual medium.
It's applicable to this post, maybe, but I dunno... There aren't many posts tagged with it, and most of them can be tagged with existing tags -- forced_masturbation, forced_orgasm, forced_arousal, or forced_groping. I could maybe see it having use as an umbrella tag for all of those?
beholding said:
Isn't that forced_orgasm? I feel like this is all too granular, especially for a visual medium.
or forced_groping. I could maybe see it having use as an umbrella tag for all of those?
Oh it absolutely is granular, but I'm sure some people would like that
To clarify then, forced_pleasure would be the process necessary (realistically) to reach a forced_orgasm
And that bit about forced groping made me remember that I was (for some reason) purposely dancing around just saying that it's a lot like molestation. You'd just have visual feedback that the molesting is 'working' assuming the evildoer's goal.
Hm. Alright, how's this for a wiki description:
When a character is forced to feel unwanted sexual pleasure. Note that this does not refer to all instances of a character showing signs of pleasure in a forced situation; the perpetrator must show an intent to cause pleasure and the victim must clearly show that it is unwanted. If the perpetrator does not show intent to cause pleasure, use unwanted arousal instead.
This is an umbrella tag that can include several of the following circumstances:
See also
I imagine forced_masturbation, forced_arousal, and forced_orgasm should implicate it, as well.
beholding said:
Hm. Alright, how's this for a wiki description: ...
Personally, I'd add "If the perpetrator does not show intent to cause pleasure (or there is no apparent perpetrator), use unwanted arousal instead." to it, and either alias it to forced_arousal or change forced arousal to read similarly and specify the difference between them; as it is, it could lead people to assume forced_orgasm = unwanted_arousal but forced_orgasm =/= forced_arousal in instances of rape. For example:
beholding said:
...the wiki pages explicitly state that forced_arousal is to be used for all external forces except rape, and unwanted_arousal is for arousal due to rape...
I think what the writer meant was "This tag is not for situations where a character becomes sexually aroused solely from being raped", but it is absolutely not saying that explicitly.
To be succinct, my view of the implications is, as an example, forced_orgasm -> forced_arousal -> unwanted_arousal, and forced_arousal should be changed to clearly reflect this.
nin10dope said:
Arousal is the mental step before pleasure
I assume you meant it the other way around? horny (which is aliased to aroused) specifies that it's a physical reaction. If so, I'd agree that's the distinction, but I'm not sure the tag is a great idea. The only big pleasure-related tag is looking_pleasured b/c TWYS is explicitly not equipped to handle non-visual info (like if a character is enjoying it when they aren't already physically aroused), so I'm not too jazzed about keeping forced_pleasure on it's own. If they're subjected to forced arousal and look pleasured, just use those 2 tags; this'll just dilute an already undertagged area. Even as someone who is into this niche and would personally like to clarify the ambiguity on posts w/ looking_pleasured & forced_arousal (e.g. between the victim & the perpetrator looking_pleasured), it's just the blindspot of e6's tagging system not being character-based & I'd rather just alias them together than have the downstream case be missed 9 times out of ten.
Honestly, yeah, I think it's better off aliased to forced_arousal.
I like your ideas for the wiki revisions. Would you be willing to write them?
I've submitted a BUR request at topic #56330.