The bulk update request #10818 has been rejected.

Reason: Basically, a lot of games have a lot of names for their own generic "Animal people" and to be honest, there's too much randomness going around. For Starters, for consistency the Generic Lizardman should be renamed to Lizardfolk for consistency, my research shows this to have been done because this was the Official name for them in 2 properties, however, given that similar species generic names (Catfolk, Merfolk) use "folk" and Lizardman_(Warhammer) exists for example, I feel the generic tag (Which arguably should be a disambiguation category thing and not a tag) should use more consistent terminology and, if a category or disambiguation option is not on the table, have all non-generic versions imply the generic ones.
Secondly, as a Player of the TTRPG Systems Pathfinder and Starfinder, I feel it is important to separate generic and non-generic ancestries.
Thirdly, Based on past BURs Animalfolk should not imply the associated animal anymore, I don't have a good reason for this beyond consistency, but I feel consistency is a pretty good reason.
The first change is to set up a follow-up to Alias Lizardman -> Lizardfolk since that's arguably way smarter lol.
Goblins are here because Paizo created there own Unique Goblin Design in like 2008 and they should be treated as their own thing, just implying their more generic brethren.
In the future tags such as "Catfolk_(Magic:_the_gathering)" should be created that imply the generic versions too.
Furthermore Lycanthropy may refer to Werewolves in some media, but many TTRPGs use it as a blanket term for non-wolf werecreatures and unless someone has a better idea, I suggest decoupling the two.
Also, Kholo implying Gnoll is simply due to Kholo being renamed Gnolls and Gnoll here being used as the Generic name.

This is not an exhaustive list nor the only way this could be done and also I'm not sure if I even did this right so like- ye-

EDIT: The bulk update request #10818 (forum #444707) has been rejected by @DawnDaybreak.

I do intend to follow this up a couple times due to limitations with the system lol

Also if anyone has any better ideas be my guest but currently things are kinda broken and so something should probably happen...

The bulk update request #10818 (forum #444707) has been rejected by @DawnDaybreak.

auto_moderator said:
The bulk update request #10818 (forum #444707) has been rejected by @DawnDaybreak.

Realised 2 things
1. Too many disperate ideas were clogging my mind when I did this so I should re-do this as several smaller changes
2. I should talk to a couple ppl about what we think we should actually be doing with these species, cuz the tag what you see doesn't really apply when the difference between a Gnoll, Kholo, and Anthropomorphic Hyena is, quite literally, context that cannot be included in an image without a text bubble. As such I'm starting to wonder if most of these should be removed outright unless there's substantial changes by the copyright holder, such as with Paizo's Goblins...

Also I'm still hellbent on changing Lizardman -> Lizardfolk
The fact it's not despite Catfolk and Merfolk being folk (especially since most stuff would still use Mermaid instead of Merfolk) is very inconsistent and the previous justification done to make it Lizardman is incredibly arbitrary.

dawndaybreak said:
Also I'm still hellbent on changing Lizardman -> Lizardfolk
The fact it's not despite Catfolk and Merfolk being folk (especially since most stuff would still use Mermaid instead of Merfolk) is very inconsistent and the previous justification done to make it Lizardman is incredibly arbitrary.

I'm still of the opinion that lizardman is a pointless tag that makes no real distinction between it and just antro reptile.

catfolk was, until about a month and a half ago, explicitly the WotC brand of cat people. it was in the process of being disambiguated but the follow-up BUR wasn't accepted.

dawndaybreak said:
Also I'm still hellbent on changing Lizardman -> Lizardfolk
The fact it's not despite Catfolk and Merfolk being folk (especially since most stuff would still use Mermaid instead of Merfolk) is very inconsistent and the previous justification done to make it Lizardman is incredibly arbitrary.

I'm of a similar opinion to dba afish, I'd rather see these (non-franchise specific) <species>folk and <species>man tags go away since they're essentially just terms for generic animal people, i.e. anthros. Individual franchises can have their own unique take on what they call catfolk, lizardman, etc, and we can have tags with the appropriate franchise suffix to distinguish them, but the generic <species>folk and <species>man tags themselves are pointless.

dba_afish said:
catfolk was, until about a month and a half ago, explicitly the WotC brand of cat people. it was in the process of being disambiguated but the follow-up BUR wasn't accepted.

Yeah originally I had put pieces of the follow-Up BUR to that in this, realized that I had too much going on, meant to rework it, got tired and hit send (That's why I rejected it myself, it was made while I was delirious and upon waking up I realized I had like so many stupid things going on and came to the same conclusion you all just did lol) and am now debating making a BUR to remove them in general and disambiguate them otherwise.
like have "Lizardman" aliased to Lizard and then have "Lizardfolk_(D&D)" Imply both Lizard and Anthro, then make a Lizardfolk Category that disambiguates between generic "Lizard" and also any owned/official ones like "Lizardman_(Warhammer)" and "Lizardfolk_(D&D)" the sole exception being merfolk as they're also part human
This would, for consistency, also cause Gnoll to become aliased to Hyena, with there being a "Gnoll_(D&D)" for D&D and "Kholo" for PF2 etcetera...
but I wanna hear what some ppl think first lol

It occurs to me now that turning Lizardfolk and Catfolk into a disambiguation would require me to find all the current tags related to Franchise Specific Animalfolk, which is gonna be fun given I would think to include Argonians, Tabaxi, and Khajiit in this lol... Also if I were to make a Gnoll disambiguation, would "Hyenafolk" be a better named for it do you think? The disambiguation I mean, cuz not all Hyenafolk are called Gnolls anymore for copyright reasons...

dawndaybreak said:
It occurs to me now that turning Lizardfolk and Catfolk into a disambiguation would require me to find all the current tags related to Franchise Specific Animalfolk, which is gonna be fun given I would think to include Argonians, Tabaxi, and Khajiit in this lol... Also if I were to make a Gnoll disambiguation, would "Hyenafolk" be a better named for it do you think? The disambiguation I mean, cuz not all Hyenafolk are called Gnolls anymore for copyright reasons...

As I already linked you on discord the catfolk disambiguation is already partially complete.

https://e621.net/forum_topics/55150

manitka said:
As I already linked you on discord the catfolk disambiguation is already partially complete.

https://e621.net/forum_topics/55150

IK, I originally had that in a version of this, but I hit the 25 cap and I meant to save this for later and come back to it, not post it lol.
Mind you, posting it seems to have been genuinely helpful as it allowed me to speak to others about their thoughts and gauge the current thoughts on how to handle this lol.

dawndaybreak said:
IK, I originally had that in a version of this, but I hit the 25 cap and I meant to save this for later and come back to it, not post it lol.
Mind you, posting it seems to have been genuinely helpful as it allowed me to speak to others about their thoughts and gauge the current thoughts on how to handle this lol.

Okay
Current plan;
1a. Forward the changes of bulk update request #10391 to "cat_warrior_(magic)" as it was accidentally skipped
1b. create a BUR to complete one of the incolmplete changes of the followup of said BUR; Merging all the MTG Cat_Warriors and Catfolk into 1 "catfolk_(magic:_the_gathering)" Tag
2a. Create Disambiguations for Lizardfolk, Catfolk, Hyenafolk, Ratfolk, and more...
2b. Alias the generic tags to the Disambiguation tags
3a. Create a List of all Animal folk species
3b. Add said species to the appropriate Dismbiguation tags; these are as Follows so far

Lizardfolk;
- Lizardman_(Warhammer)
- Skink_(Warhammer_fantasy)
- Lizardfolk_(dnd)
- Lizardfolk_(Lustful_Desires)
- Argonians The Elder Scrolls
- Lizard_(divinity)
- Lizardman_(that_time_i_got_reincarnated_as_a_slime)
- Lizardman_(Overlord)
- Lizardfolk_(Paizo) Called Paizo here and not Pathfinder because Pathfinder and Starfinder are set in the same universe, use the same ruleset (as of 2e), contain the same ancestries where applicable, etcetera. Some ancestries do fit more into one game than the other, but due to some like Ysoki and Androids existing identically in both games, with Ysoki especially being notable due to being in both Pathfinder Player Core 2 and The Starfinder Player Core with identical stats (As the games are 100% compatible). This will follow for all future Pathfinder and Starfinder ancestries until Paizo comes up with an Official name for their shared universe, lol
- Vesk Paizo, Starfinder
- Gorn Star Trek
- Iskar Everquest
- Silurians Doctor Who

Catfolk; (Rakshasa_(Magic:_the_Gathering) is not here because Magic has since removed the cat from Rakshasas in modern reprints for cultural sensitivity reasons, we could put them in here but I would only do so with a note that more modern Rakshasa do not have Cat-like traits in MtG anymore)
- Catfolk_(Magic:_the_Gathering)
- Khajiit The Elder Scrolls
- Catfolk_(Paizo) They call themselves Amurruns, but unlike Ysoki, who are called Ratfolk in the PF2 ruleset, they are not also in the Starfinder ruleset with their cultural name and identical stats.
- Tabaxi Dnd
- Pahtra Paizo, Starfinder

Hyenafolk
- Gnoll_(Dnd)
- Kholo Paizo, Pathfinder

Ratfolk
- Ysoki Paizo, both Starfinder and Pathfinder
- Skaven Warhammer

Serpentfolk
- Serpentfolk_(Paizo)
- Yuan-ti Dnd

dawndaybreak said:
2b. Alias the generic tags to the Disambiguation tags

I wonder if it would be better to alias them to their species, e.g. catfolk -> feline (or felid), lizardman -> lizard (or reptile, scalie). Disambiguations require manual cleanup, and it would potentially leave the species untagged; if someone just tags lizardman for example, it would be changed to lizardman_(disambiguation) with no species tagged on the post that someone has to fix. People may also be more reluctant to remove the disambiguation when they don't know all the franchise-specific lizardman/lizardfolk it could be. If it's aliased to lizard, then the post would be tagged lizard or whatever that would almost assuredly be correct, and if it's a specific lizardman from some franchise, someone can recognize it and add the tag (which already happens if they didn't tag the franchise-specific variant to begin with), rather than posts leaving an invalid/disambiguation tag on because no one was confident it wasn't some specific one.

watsit said:
I wonder if it would be better to alias them to their species, e.g. catfolk -> feline (or felid), lizardman -> lizard (or reptile, scalie). Disambiguations require manual cleanup, and it would potentially leave the species untagged; if someone just tags lizardman for example, it would be changed to lizardman_(disambiguation) with no species tagged on the post that someone has to fix. People may also be more reluctant to remove the disambiguation when they don't know all the franchise-specific lizardman/lizardfolk it could be. If it's aliased to lizard, then the post would be tagged lizard or whatever that would almost assuredly be correct, and if it's a specific lizardman from some franchise, someone can recognize it and add the tag (which already happens if they didn't tag the franchise-specific variant to begin with), rather than posts leaving an invalid/disambiguation tag on because no one was confident it wasn't some specific one.

Ig, I just worry cuz Lizardfolk are Anthro Lizards and to my knowledge you can't have a specific Alias apply a thing, though I did think of that...

watsit said:
If it's aliased to lizard, then the post would be tagged lizard or whatever that would almost assuredly be correct, and if it's a specific lizardman from some franchise, someone can recognize it and add the tag (which already happens if they didn't tag the franchise-specific variant to begin with), rather than posts leaving an invalid/disambiguation tag on because no one was confident it wasn't some specific one.

Lol true that's what I've been doing the past little while in my free time for Pathfinder lol