The tag implication #66292 clitoral_fingering -> fingering is pending approval.

Reason: One's a type of the other.

A type of clitoral stimulation in which a character uses their fingers to rub or interact with a clitoris.

This isn't fingering, which is the insertion of the fingers into some orifice. This is more like masturbation or a handjob, just stimulating the clitoris instead of a penis. clitoral_fingering should really be renamed.

watsit said:
This isn't fingering, which is the insertion of the fingers into some orifice. This is more like masturbation or a handjob, just stimulating the clitoris instead of a penis. clitoral_fingering should really be renamed.

I'm not really sure where the idea that fingering needs to be limited to just inserting the fingers. Wikipedia describes fingering as such:

"Fingering is sexual stimulation of the vulva (including the clitoris) or vagina by using the fingers." and "Fingering may also include the use of fingers to stimulate the anus."

And this is also clearly how it is commonly used on this website because there are over 2k posts tagged with clitoral_fingering, and even the wiki for fingering acknowledges that the tag is likely used for rubbing the surface of the orifice.

If you want a tag that specifically describes the insertion of the fingers into an orifice, I would think something like digital_penetration would be far more accurate.

smallgreybird said:
I'm not really sure where the idea that fingering needs to be limited to just inserting the fingers.

The e6 wiki:

The sexual stimulation of an orifice by using the fingers, such as the anus, pussy, genital slit, or cloaca.

nipple_fingering equally says:

One or more fingers going into a character's nipple.

Not simply using fingers to stimulate someone's nipple, but actual insertion into one. It creates a mismatch in meaning if anal_fingering, vaginal_fingering, cloacal_fingering, sheath_fingering, nipple_fingering, etc, all mean 'insertion of fingers into ...', until you get to clitoral_fingering where it takes on a different meaning.

watsit said:
The e6 wiki:
nipple_fingering equally says:
Not simply using fingers to stimulate someone's nipple, but actual insertion into one. It creates a mismatch in meaning if anal_fingering, vaginal_fingering, cloacal_fingering, sheath_fingering, nipple_fingering, etc, all mean 'insertion of fingers into ...', until you get to clitoral_fingering where it takes on a different meaning.

But for what reason do those other tags need to be defined as inserting a finger, rather than just updating the wikis and changing "insertion of a finger" to "sexual stimulation by using the fingers"?

It kinda sounds like the main argument is just "that's how we've always done it", rather than actually coming up with the solution that makes the most sense.

Now I could be wrong, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least of the only reason why we use the insertion definition is just because that's what someone decided to write down in the wiki over a decade ago.

Instead of referring to other wiki pages we should probably look how people are using these tags, and it seems to me that people are using the term clitoral_fingering. The common understanding of the term fingering seems to be broader than just simply penetration with a finger, so it doesn't really make sense to me to try to change that definition just to keep things how they are.

smallgreybird said:
But for what reason do those other tags need to be defined as inserting a finger, rather than just updating the wikis and changing "insertion of a finger" to "sexual stimulation by using the fingers"?

Because that's how people interpret it, and defining tags differently from how words generally understood causes problems. The penetration wiki also draws a parallel to fingering:

This does not include fingers. For this use fingering instead. (somewhat disputed, see topic #32887)

So penetrating using fingers should be tagged fingering rather than penetration. There have been topics over the years questioning whether it should be allowed to tag penetration for fingering, which there seems to be a consensus that it should.

smallgreybird said:
It kinda sounds like the main argument is just "that's how we've always done it", rather than actually coming up with the solution that makes the most sense.

The other thread seems to have a sensible solution, to call the tag clitoral_rubbing instead, which avoids the fingering/penetration confusion and is clear about what it means.

watsit said:
The e6 wiki:
nipple_fingering equally says:
Not simply using fingers to stimulate someone's nipple, but actual insertion into one. It creates a mismatch in meaning if anal_fingering, vaginal_fingering, cloacal_fingering, sheath_fingering, nipple_fingering, etc, all mean 'insertion of fingers into ...', until you get to clitoral_fingering where it takes on a different meaning.

There's a reason fingering doesn't imply penetration. (Also until recently it was mutually exclusive with penetration before that was modified)

snpthecat said:
There's a reason fingering doesn't imply penetration. (Also until recently it was mutually exclusive with penetration before that was modified)

The idea was to keep them as separate types of penetration, not that it wasn't penetration (the penetration wiki even says "This does not include fingers. For this use fingering instead.", i.e. penetration with fingers should be tagged fingering rather than penetration). This stance has been changing because it's recognized that fingering is a type of penetration that should be included under penetration. Fisting also wasn't considered penetration until a couple years ago.

watsit said:
The idea was to keep them as separate types of penetration, not that it wasn't penetration (the penetration wiki even says "This does not include fingers. For this use fingering instead.", i.e. penetration with fingers should be tagged fingering rather than penetration). This stance has been changing because it's recognized that fingering is a type of penetration that should be included under penetration. Fisting also wasn't considered penetration until a couple years ago.

I would suggest simply introducing digital_penetration, which, according to wikipedia is the legal/medical term for fingering, and essentially means penetration with a finger.

Then I would also suggest we unalias finger_in_pussy/ass/slit and change the wiki definitions for (orifice)_fingering tags to "stimulation using the fingers", which would mean clitoral_fingering is no longer the odd one out.

This seems like a much better solution than trying to alias away a semantically correct tag to a more ambiguous alternative.

smallgreybird said:
I would suggest simply introducing digital_penetration, which, according to wikipedia is the legal/medical term for fingering, and essentially means penetration with a finger.

That sounds too weird to me, like some kind of online sex act, or penetration in VR, or penetration involving a digimon. "Digital" doesn't make me think fingers/toes.

watsit said:
That sounds too weird to me, like some kind of online sex act, or penetration in VR, or penetration involving a digimon. "Digital" doesn't make me think fingers/toes.

It doesn't seem like it is likely to be mistagged though, since numbers/computing based penetration probably isn't a thing in most people's minds. I'm open to suggestions though. But since fingering is already being used for non-penetrative situations, and rubbing seems to be used for situations involving appendages other than the fingers, such as tentacles or tails, it doesn't really seem useful to limit fingering to penetration only, nor does it make sense to alias a tag like clitoral_fingering away just because it doesn't include insertion/penetration.