This question has stalled in the lore tag crowdsourcing thread for nearly a year, so I would like to make a dedicated topic to continue the discussion. Frankly, I think it has had more than enough time to percolate, and we should start moving towards a formal decision. Discussion in the lore tag thread started here and continued here.

To begin with, obviously these tags should only be used in situations where they are relevant, like the young_(lore) and adult_(lore) tags, to avoid flooding the tags to the point of uselessness.

Personally, I believe the second linked post demonstrates a clear need for these tags. There are many kinks where consent is impossible to determine from the outside such as bdsm and roleplay, and there exist subdivisions of those kinks that specifically kink on consent or nonconsent, as demonstrated by the pools listed in that discussion. Users who enjoy kinky roleplay content only if the characters are consenting in context (or vice-versa) require these tags in order to tweak their blacklist to their needs.

The main counterargument, as far as I can tell, is that consent can be subjective, thus leading to arguments and tag wars in edge cases; this is supported by such arguments having occurred previously around dubious consent situations such as sleep sex. I counter that this argument actually supports the creation of these lore tags, as they'd allow for the use of more objective information to make a determination - and even if not, we still have questionable consent for those edge cases. The last post on the topic also proposes policy standards that would address these issues:

m-b said:
Like you were saying, I'm talking about things that are explicitly nonconsensual in the context of a larger work or the author's own statements attached to that specific work or related work. The "drugged" example was only meant to point out how something that is explicitly nonconsensual in context (i.e. previous pages tagged "forced" by TWYS) can appear enthusiastically consensual without that context.

As far as tag wars go, I'm down for establishing a higher "burden of proof" than "forced" has. Usually, if an artist is creating noncon content, they're not exactly subtle about it. Since this is a lore tag, anything not explicit can be assumed "open to interpretation", and by default shouldn't be considered forced.

Unfortunately, that's where the discussion ended. If anyone would like to make additional points, please do so.

I would love the option to tag my work as consensual.

As someone who makes a LOT of content involving consensual bondage and specifically forced_orgasm situations, where the consent is usually directly stated in various stories attached to the pic descriptions, it drives me up the wall that forced_orgasm invokes forced which is described as being "without consent".

Since the last conversation about correcting the forced_orgasm tag to match common real-world BDSM terminology failed, the next best thing would be to be able to indicate with a lore tag that the scenarios are consensual.

Going against the grain but I am definitely up for making consensual/nonconsensual lore tags. Users usually turn to the artist as for whether the artwork is or isn't consensual (and artists usually like to clarify).

I suspect the opposition to making it lore is that it's doesn't fit or follow any of the other lore tags

sentharn said:

it drives me up the wall that forced_orgasm invokes forced which is described as being "without consent".

Since the last conversation about correcting the forced_orgasm tag to match common real-world BDSM terminology failed, the next best thing would be to be able to indicate with a lore tag that the scenarios are consensual.

I recommend involuntary orgasm. (Though it doesn't seem populated) Hmmm...

snpthecat said:
Going against the grain but I am definitely up for making consensual/nonconsensual lore tags. Users usually turn to the artist as for whether the artwork is or isn't consensual (and artists usually like to clarify).

I suspect the opposition to making it lore is that it's doesn't fit or follow any of the other lore tags

I recommend involuntary orgasm. (Though it doesn't seem populated) Hmmm...

I faintly remember a fight on forced_orgasm vs involuntary_orgasm but I don't remember the specifics; if anyone is planning to tag you should definitely search first to see what the result was!

I have kinda mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, it'd be nice for people to be able to point out when there's outside context that says the characters are roleplaying, acting, etc.
On the other hand this tag could easily become pointless and just applied to everything the way those "All characters are 18+ and consenting/acting" disclaimers are. A "cover your ass, get out of jail free, don't demonetize/cancel me" tag is not something that's needed.

That said, these same concerns exist about adult_(lore) which, to my knowledge, hasn't been overly abused.

regsmutt said:
On the other hand this tag could easily become pointless and just applied to everything the way those "All characters are 18+ and consenting/acting" disclaimers are. A "cover your ass, get out of jail free, don't demonetize/cancel me" tag is not something that's needed.

I highly doubt this, given a significant number of people kink on noncon and dubcon.

Are there actually a significant number of platforms that demonetize noncon content? I've heard complaints about banning sexual content entirely, but not this specifically.

The bulk update request #10111 is pending approval.

change category consensual_(lore) (0) -> lore # missing
change category nonconsensual_(lore) (0) -> lore # missing

Reason: Let's put this to an official vote.

I think it's prudent to have a wiki page ready to go before these launch to establish clear guidelines for their use. I'll post a draft here.

A tag that applies to situations involving questionable consent where the artist has confirmed the situation is [consensual/nonconsensual], or in the case of a multi-page story, an explicit statement to that effect in an earlier scene.

This tag can be applied in tandem with consent-related tags that can be tagged under Tag What You See, i.e. a post that visually appears to depict rape but is stated to be consensual by the artist should be tagged with both rape and consensual_(lore).

This should not be added to:

• Posts where consent is not ambiguous. By default, sex should be assumed to be consensual.
• [nonconsensual_(lore) page only] Posts where nonconsent can be properly tagged as forced or rape under TWYS; a lore tag is redundant in this case.
• Posts where contextual consent is vague or ambiguous. Instead of making a subjective assumption, use questionable consent for these posts instead.

Related tags:

• explicitly stated consent
• explicitly stated nonconsent
• forced
• rape
• questionable consent

beholding said:
The bulk update request #10111 is pending approval.

change category consensual_(lore) (0) -> lore # missing
change category nonconsensual_(lore) (0) -> lore # missing

Reason: Let's put this to an official vote.

Note: This is the one situation where the # missing warning matters. Since lore tags can't be created by normal users outside of BURs, the tag does not exist (at point of approval), and since it doesn't exist you can't change its category, and the BUR fails.

Usually you can ignore the missing warning since you create the tag via implication/alias, but in this case you aren't creating any (in the same BUR)

Of course this still works perfectly fine as a vote

snpthecat said:
Note: This is the one situation where the # missing warning matters. Since lore tags can't be created by normal users outside of BURs, the tag does not exist (at point of approval), and since it doesn't exist you can't change its category, and the BUR fails.

Usually you can ignore the missing warning since you create the tag via implication/alias, but in this case you aren't creating any (in the same BUR)

Of course this still works perfectly fine as a vote

How should I handle this? Can I add lines to the BUR to fix it?

beholding said:
How should I handle this? Can I add lines to the BUR to fix it?

Not much can change that, I just wanted to let you know about what might come up.

beholding said:
I highly doubt this, given a significant number of people kink on noncon and dubcon.

Are there actually a significant number of platforms that demonetize noncon content? I've heard complaints about banning sexual content entirely, but not this specifically.

Patreon.

I think this would be a pretty good idea. I also think a heightened nonconsensual tag would also apply. Some people look up noncon just for some more intense domination, and others want some seriously sad stuff, and both groups don't like one all-encompassing tag to host both compositions.

sputty said:
I think this would be a pretty good idea. I also think a heightened nonconsensual tag would also apply. Some people look up noncon just for some more intense domination, and others want some seriously sad stuff, and both groups don't like one all-encompassing tag to host both compositions.

That would be subjective, and thus very difficult to regulate. I would recommend compiling a set in that case, or simply searching for related kinks like master/slave or degradation.

Why not allow questionable_consent to get either one of these tags? I can definitely see artists wanting to clarify that it is in fact consensual. Needs to only be added in accordance with the artist's actual intent of course, not just what random viewers assume, but all lore tags could be abused that way and I don't think it's been a major issue thus far
Anyways +1

wandering_spaniel said:
Why not allow questionable_consent to get either one of these tags?

I don't see the value in doing that. Is there anyone who wants to blacklist rape but would change their mind if the author said you're not meant to be able to tell if it's rape? Given questionable consent is specifically about a lack of information, saying we still don't know even in context doesn't seem like it would add anything.

beholding said:
I don't see the value in doing that. Is there anyone who wants to blacklist rape but would change their mind if the author said you're not meant to be able to tell if it's rape? Given questionable consent is specifically about a lack of information, saying we still don't know even in context doesn't seem like it would add anything.

I think they mean the suggested description saying these tags shouldn't be added to "Posts where contextual consent is vague or ambiguous. Instead of making a subjective assumption, use questionable consent for these posts instead." It would make sense to tag it for questionable_consent posts if the artist intent is known to be forced or consensual, just as we tag male_(lore) when that's the intent for posts tagged ambiguous_gender, not just female or intersex.

watsit said:
I think they mean the suggested description saying these tags shouldn't be added to "Posts where contextual consent is vague or ambiguous. Instead of making a subjective assumption, use questionable consent for these posts instead." It would make sense to tag it for questionable_consent posts if the artist intent is known to be forced or consensual, just as we tag male_(lore) when that's the intent for posts tagged ambiguous_gender, not just female or intersex.

I think I may have stated that poorly. I don't mean to say the lore tags shouldn't be applied to questionable consent posts, but that an assumption shouldn't be made when consent is still ambiguous even in context. That would be equivalent to an ambiguous_gender_(lore) tag, which was previously discussed but most people agreed wouldn't make sense.

beholding said:
That would be equivalent to an ambiguous_gender_(lore) tag, which was previously discussed but most people agreed wouldn't make sense.

Still holding out for such a tag, I know at least one character where it applies

watsit said:
I think they mean the suggested description saying these tags shouldn't be added to "Posts where contextual consent is vague or ambiguous. Instead of making a subjective assumption, use questionable consent for these posts instead." It would make sense to tag it for questionable_consent posts if the artist intent is known to be forced or consensual, just as we tag male_(lore) when that's the intent for posts tagged ambiguous_gender, not just female or intersex.

Oh yeah this is what I meant.

beholding said:
I think I may have stated that poorly. I don't mean to say the lore tags shouldn't be applied to questionable consent posts, but that an assumption shouldn't be made when consent is still ambiguous even in context. That would be equivalent to an ambiguous_gender_(lore) tag, which was previously discussed but most people agreed wouldn't make sense.

Ah I see. Yeah I misunderstood

It has been nearly 2 weeks without discussion, so I am bumping this to ask if additional discussion is necessary or if a ruling can be made.

I don't want to seem impatient, but it's now been months and I don't want this to fall through the cracks. Is there a reason why the admins want to wait on this?

beholding said:
I don't want to seem impatient, but it's now been months and I don't want this to fall through the cracks. Is there a reason why the admins want to wait on this?

do you not understand the absolute sheer amount of BURS and alias/implication requests that are currently up at any given time? you are not the only one who has waited, in fact there are many burs that have been up for years. they can only be approved by admins, and there are SOOOOO many.

https://e621.net/bulk_update_requests?commit=Search&search%5Border%5D=status_desc&search%5Bstatus%5D=pending

currently 39 pages of burs

I feel a bit weird about having a tag called just consensual_(lore). I could see a rape_play_(lore) tag being useful, though. it's intentions as a "but actually"-type lore tag would be clear by its name especially since it shares a name with an existing tag. I'm still on the fence about an inverse of this one, though (i.e. rape_(lore)).

manitka said:
do you not understand the absolute sheer amount of BURS and alias/implication requests that are currently up at any given time? you are not the only one who has waited, in fact there are many burs that have been up for years. they can only be approved by admins, and there are SOOOOO many.

I'm well aware, but plenty of more recent BURs have been approved in the past few months. I'm just anxious the admins have forgotten about it and it's going to fall into oblivion, as has happened to so many others.

dba_afish said:
I feel a bit weird about having a tag called just consensual_(lore). I could see a rape_play_(lore) tag being useful, though. it's intentions as a "but actually"-type lore tag would be clear by its name especially since it shares a name with an existing tag. I'm still on the fence about an inverse of this one, though (i.e. rape_(lore)).

There are situations other than rape_play where it would be warranted. Would a roleplay_(lore) tag be sufficient?

beholding said:
I don't want to seem impatient, but it's now been months and I don't want this to fall through the cracks. Is there a reason why the admins want to wait on this?

admin, singular
At any given time there is at most one admin working on BURs, that is almost always spe. Contrary to some people's beliefs, he does have a life outside of the site. The AIBUR queue is difficult and draining work. No one wants to do it.
Please stop bumping your requests without adding anything to them. There are so many requests that the singular admin handling them is drowning.

donovan_dmc said:
admin, singular
At any given time there is at most one admin working on BURs, that is almost always spe. Contrary to some people's beliefs, he does have a life outside of the site. The AIBUR queue is difficult and draining work. No one wants to do it.
Please stop bumping your requests without adding anything to them. There are so many requests that the singular admin handling them is drowning.

Why does only one admin work on BURS at a time? Is it so admins aren't stepping on each other's toes?

protox3alt said:
Why does only one admin work on BURS at a time? Is it so admins aren't stepping on each other's toes?

The AIBUR queue is difficult and draining work. No one wants to do it.

beholding said:
There are situations other than rape_play where it would be warranted. Would a roleplay_(lore) tag be sufficient?

in what situations would a character appear to be forced when they're actually consenting other than rape play?

I just want to throw in a minimalistic "No" vote for the sake of not wanting to allow lore tags to get too broad in their usage. I also feel like it would just be used by artists/commissioners to feel better about questionable art and avoid drama that could form from said art. And I feel like it could maybe detract from other user's potential enjoyment of affected posts to see that the perceived/shown circumstances of art are arbitrarily labelled as a false premise. Although to be fair, the reverse can be true: some people might like art more because of the label.

tl;dr I think it would get messy fast

donovan_dmc said:
admin, singular
At any given time there is at most one admin working on BURs, that is almost always spe. Contrary to some people's beliefs, he does have a life outside of the site. The AIBUR queue is difficult and draining work. No one wants to do it.
Please stop bumping your requests without adding anything to them. There are so many requests that the singular admin handling them is drowning.

Alright, sorry. But if the work exceeds capacity, can you at least consider getting more people to share the workload, even if "no one wants to do it"? There are way too many requests that get forgotten about and languish for months or even years. That's not a good situation for the site, and it's hardly fair to spe to force him to do a job that should be handled by multiple people.

nin10dope said:
I also feel like it would just be used by artists/commissioners to feel better about questionable art and avoid drama that could form from said art.

This was argued upthread, but I'm still not convinced it's a significant problem, especially when we already have adult_(lore) which is way more abusable.

dba_afish said:
in what situations would a character appear to be forced when they're actually consenting other than rape play?

bdsm. There are a lot of posts that are tagged with forced or rape solely due to the character being bound or helpless.

beholding said:
But if the work exceeds capacity, can you at least consider getting more people to share the workload, even if "no one wants to do it"?

That's... that's literally why it's so behind constantly. No one wants to do it. It's an admin only task and it's very easy to break the site with AIBUR, so it can't just be handed out to more people
Everyone wants more people on it, but getting to admin is not a simple task

We currently technically have 9 admins
- spe, already on AIBUR
- Cinder, developer
- Dari, BD sysadmin
- Hal Greaves/Dasadevil, something at bad dragon I forget
- furrypickle, dunno, sometimes does a few AIBUR
- Xch3l, honestly don't know
- Varka, BD
- Rainbow Dash, tickets/escalation
- NotMeNotYou, escalation

There really isn't any room in here to put AIBUR on more people's shoulders
Gatto used to do AIBUR but got burned out on it and moved over to Janitor