Apparently I can't use the official alias suggestion route, since "cat" is already aliased to something - a flaw in the forum logic, since it means that suggesting alterations to an already existing tag alias is impossible through the channel intended for discussing aliasing. But lets get to the justification itself:

A lot of taggers seem to have the misconception that the "cat"-tag is appropriate to use of all feline animals, up and including lions and tigers. This can make finding art specifically of housecats a chore. For the sake of avoiding the problem in the future, I would recommend aliasing the tag so that there can be no ambiguity over what species it represents, by leaving "housecat" as the only visible tag.

Wouldn't it be easier to report/notify the users who incorrectly use the cat tag? Is the problem widespread enough to make an alias the best option? Not arguing against the idea, just curious.

if you see someone using cat as synonym for feline, you are supposed to report them.

also housecat would not be good tag because cat also applies to various wildcats.. which are NOT housecats.

*squints* okay, let me see if I understand this.

kitty, neko, cats, black_cat, house_cat, and housecat are all aliased to 'cat'
persian_cat, egyptian_mau, manx, tabby_cat, russian_blue, pallas's_cat, toyger, cabbit, maine_coon, felyne, siamese, calico_cat all imply 'cat'
cat implies feline

The suggestion is that cat should be 'housecat' instead, because some people are tagging tigers as 'cat' rather than 'feline'.
The reply is that 'cat' also applies to various wildcat species that are not wildcats.

Okay. setting aside lots of blather about different cat species, the bottom line I have here is that we have the wildcat tag which is intended to cover all members of Felis silvestris that are not the domestic cat.

I support changing 'cat' to housecat or domestic_cat

--and would support domestic_dog for dog, too. Except Dog would involve changing a LOT of implications.

SnowWolf said:
*squints* okay, let me see if I understand this.

kitty, neko, cats, black_cat, house_cat, and housecat are all aliased to 'cat'
persian_cat, egyptian_mau, manx, tabby_cat, russian_blue, pallas's_cat, toyger, cabbit, maine_coon, felyne, siamese, calico_cat all imply 'cat'
cat implies feline

The suggestion is that cat should be 'housecat' instead, because some people are tagging tigers as 'cat' rather than 'feline'.
The reply is that 'cat' also applies to various wildcat species that are not wildcats.

Okay. setting aside lots of blather about different cat species, the bottom line I have here is that we have the wildcat tag which is intended to cover all members of Felis silvestris that are not the domestic cat.

I support changing 'cat' to housecat or domestic_cat

--and would support domestic_dog for dog, too. Except Dog would involve changing a LOT of implications.

The thing about wildcats and house cats is that they look nearly identical. It also gets used as a generic term at times (of the 24 images that aren't Freedom Planet eight are obvious mistags, at least one is a mistag with research, I was only able to confirm the species for six images) and might be additionally some sort of fictional species judging from how one character dominates the tag.

regsmutt said:
The thing about wildcats and house cats is that they look nearly identical.

Shit, I actually mentioned that, in this long ramble I had, but I deleted it out, haha.

Basically, yeah. Once passed through the filter of artist and viewer, it can be really hard to tell different types of cats apart. Tehre are 41 different cat species out there and a bazillion subspecies. Everyone knows tigers and stuff, but flat-headed cats? rust-spotted cats? kodkods and Oncilla?

we basically lump all 6 (+3 that may or may not be extinct) tiger subspecies into one category because they're all orange stripy critters. (mostly. there are some errant tiger tags, but the 72 siberian tiger posts show that they're not being used much. Actually many of them seem to be white_tigers , which is kinda funny, since *documented* real world white tigers are all bengal tigers... or bengals mixed with Siberians.)

(hmm. I think I found my project for this evening..)

It also gets used as a generic term at times (of the 24 images that aren't Freedom Planet eight are obvious mistags, at least one is a mistag with research, I was only able to confirm the species for six images) and might be additionally some sort of fictional species judging from how one character dominates the tag.

*peers* I see at least one lynx, and one that is basically a lynx without eartufts and... are those two foxes tagged as a wild cat? geeze.

Wildcat's a mess, no mistake. ... that said, they could be lumped in to 'cat' easily.

cat, on the other paw, is a kinda scary mess. the biggest problem with 'cat' is that--Oh. I was going to say that cat_humanoid implies it, but nope. Apparently a lot of people jsut tag it because they want to. ...

that said, I see a lot of random assorted not-housecats tagged with it too.

Anyway... I think 'cat' is honestly a really bad tag name because it can mean specifically house cats, any individual type of 'big cat' or 'small cat,' or all felines in general.

... I... I think Cat should be disambiguated, ultimately. o_o

I think that wildcats are *visually* indistinguishable from housecats, and they should be lumped together under domestic_cat or housecat. TWYS, after all.

SnowWolf said:
*peers* I see at least one lynx, and one that is basically a lynx without eartufts and... are those two foxes tagged as a wild cat? geeze.

The foxes were actually one of the few that I was able to verify wasn't mistagged. Turns out one of them is a """"hybrid""" and has cat ears. Species tags be like that sometimes.

Wildcat's a mess, no mistake. ... that said, they could be lumped in to 'cat' easily.

cat, on the other paw, is a kinda scary mess. the biggest problem with 'cat' is that--Oh. I was going to say that cat_humanoid implies it, but nope. Apparently a lot of people jsut tag it because they want to. ...

that said, I see a lot of random assorted not-housecats tagged with it too.

Ce n'est pas un chat

Or at least, not a domestic cat:

post #1415688 - Pretty! but this is a feline, not a domestic cat
post #1415506 - Khajiit might be domestic, if you have coin.
post #1415136 - this is a little more subjective, but the ears are a little too long, and the muzzle is WAY too long. Oh, it's a sergal.
post #1415163 - While cute, that's a demony thing.
post #1414845 - Cheetah, probably. Domestic cats don't come with that pattern.

And that's just page one...

Since i'm already in an aside here. I tried searching for cat cheetah solo and still got 81 images. To make matters worse, I see one jaguar-but-canon-says-she's-a-cheetah, a snow leopard, a tiger, a "cheetah" with gray and purple fur, more jaguars, some leopards and some domestic cats.

post #1411892

Anyway... I think 'cat' is honestly a really bad tag name because it can mean specifically house cats, any individual type of 'big cat' or 'small cat,' or all felines in general.

... I... I think Cat should be disambiguated, ultimately. o_o

I think that wildcats are *visually* indistinguishable from housecats, and they should be lumped together under domestic_cat or housecat. TWYS, after all.

(I would argue for "Felis silvestris" as the domestic cat is Felis silvestris catus, and is basically the same thing, with a few tiny genetic tweaks, but that goes against every single tagging standard we have here, and is a terrible idea, and shouldn't be considered.

Yeah, I agree that 'cat' is kinda messy (and seeing tigers pop up in my searches for cats irks me), but I don't think it should be disambiguated. Because wildcats (and feral cats- yeah they're still domestic, but not everyone gets it) are a thing you'd have people refusing to use a tag like housecat because a character is technically a Scottish wildcat or a feral cat.

A housecat/domestic_cat tag could be made to separate "this is specifically a domestic cat" things from "I dunno it's a cat I guess" things- basically turn 'cat' into another tag that functions like fox does. I personally don't like that solution at all- housecat would likely be undertagged and 'cat' would be even more of a mess than it is now making things worse for people looking specifically for housecats.

I think the best solution is to emphasize that 'cat' isn't a synonym for 'feline' and that generic feline things need to be tagged as 'feline'.

regsmutt said:
The foxes were actually one of the few that I was able to verify wasn't mistagged. Turns out one of them is a """"hybrid""" and has cat ears. Species tags be like that sometimes.

*stares at* Yeah, no, those look a little too long for cat ears. But, if we bickered about every single "hybrid" and what "species" should be tagged for them, we'd be here til the end of time. At least the island gray fox is relatively correct :)

Also, that is the sassiest quotation/air quotes I've ever seen and I love it. :D

Yeah, I agree that 'cat' is kinda messy (and seeing tigers pop up in my searches for cats irks me), but I don't think it should be disambiguated. Because wildcats (and feral cats- yeah they're still domestic, but not everyone gets it) are a thing you'd have people refusing to use a tag like housecat because a character is technically a Scottish wildcat or a feral cat.

Well, the wildcats, and feralcats ...

... ...aand domestic cats are essentially the same species. cats haven't been domesticated long enough to really diverge as a species. that kind of evolution takes a lot longer. Domestic cats are basically the products of selective breeding for beneficial traits--like being nonaggressive, curious and friendly. But, visually, they're basically the same thing. Even more so when you add furry art into the picture and they can be red, green scrawny or beefcakes. If humans vanished, house cats and wildcats would basically be identical after a few generations.

I mean wildcat -freedom_planet's a pretty small group that no one really uses. ... (not to mention there is nothing wild about post #613738 c_c )

Visually, there's just not enough difference. It becomes 'tag what you know,' y'know?

A housecat/domestic_cat tag could be made to separate "this is specifically a domestic cat" things from "I dunno it's a cat I guess" things- basically turn 'cat' into another tag that functions like fox does. I personally don't like that solution at all- housecat would likely be undertagged and 'cat' would be even more of a mess than it is now making things worse for people looking specifically for housecats.

That might work well. But in that case, then, what is the goal of 'cat' as a tag, if wildcat and house cat are both tagged?

....Maybe cat should alias to generic_cat instead XD

Also, what's wrong with fox? just the fact that all foxes are foxes and few foxes are a type of fox?

I think the best solution is to emphasize that 'cat' isn't a synonym for 'feline' and that generic feline things need to be tagged as 'feline'.

The problem is, no one is going to look at the wiki for cat. everyone knows what cat is. It's one of the first words we learn to say, and one of the first we learn to spell. Emphasizing it won't do anything. It's why I vote for the disambuguous to make people go "wait, what? What SHOULD this be, then?"

(to clarify, I mean alias cat to something like Housecat, then de-alias and disambiguate.)

Of course, doing *anything* to cat is a nightmare. It's already so wrong, but doing anything to it would just leave a mess...

SnowWolf said:

That might work well. But in that case, then, what is the goal of 'cat' as a tag, if wildcat and house cat are both tagged?

....Maybe cat should alias to generic_cat instead XD

This might be completly insane, but if people keep using cat as a synonyme for feline, and you don't know what to do whith the cat tag, why not just alias it to feline? I mean, by what I see above cat does nothing whatsoever right now and it seems to messy to save. Then you can start using the housecat/domestic cat tag. making housecat via cat seems like just as much work.

SnowWolf said:
Of course, doing *anything* to cat is a nightmare. It's already so wrong, but doing anything to it would just leave a mess...

Yeah. basically I feel like cat is so messy it will be easier just to start over.

SnowWolf said:
(to clarify, I mean alias cat to something like Housecat, then de-alias and disambiguate.)

I'm not sure I fully understand what you mean by 'disambiguate', alias to cat_(disambiguation) ?

MyNameIsOver20charac said:
This might be completly insane, but if people keep using cat as a synonyme for feline, and you don't know what to do whith the cat tag, why not just alias it to feline? I mean, by what I see above cat does nothing whatsoever right now and it seems to messy to save. Then you can start using the housecat/domestic cat tag. making housecat via cat seems like just as much work.

Yeah. basically I feel like cat is so messy it will be easier just to start over.

The problem is that then you'd have a bunch of posts of house cats that are ONLY tagged cat. There are not a lot of 'domestic house cat breeds' that are readily identifiable by art, so of the domestic house cats posted to the site, you'd have have maybe 2000-3000 posts tagged with a breed of domestic cat--which leaves like, 65,000 posts that could be domestic cats, tigers, cheetahs, or Generic Feline Character.

Now, the cheetah picture works out okay because someone PROBABLY tagged it with Cheetah, but then there are the actual cats.

I mean, it COULD work out. It MIGHT make things more tidy in general...? but then there's nothing really separating generic 'small cats' from things like:

post #1414370 post #14018474 post #1399208

Not that there's much of a divide as it is.

*Scraches head* I dunno, what do other people think?

Cat aliased to feline?

I'm not sure I fully understand what you mean by 'disambiguate', alias to cat_(disambiguation) ?

Basically, yeah. Something to make people go "oh, wait, wrong tag."

SnowWolf said:
The problem is that then you'd have a bunch of posts of house cats that are ONLY tagged cat.

...no? you'd have no posts tagged cat but a lot of housecat posts tagged as just feline, right?

Also, in case you've missed that: housecat is currently aliased to cat, so whatever we do we'll probably have to fix that.

...

Actually, thinking about it, couldn't that be part of the reason for the problem: whenever somebody tags housecat it becomes cat, which is like the vaguest tag ever. No wonder it's a mess!

Edit: there is currently 14 posts tagged domestic_cat. Just so everyone knows :). so whatever happends, I'd say alias one of house/domestic to the other.

SnowWolf said:
Also, what's wrong with fox? just the fact that all foxes are foxes and few foxes are a type of fox?

It's both a category tag and a specific species tag. Individual species are undertagged and generic fox-like canines get tagged as fox and it's unclear if that should even be allowed. If you want red foxes your options are the underused red fox tag or the fox category tag with various untagged species and generic foxes. It's... not good.

I mean, it COULD work out. It MIGHT make things more tidy in general...? but then there's nothing really separating generic 'small cats' from things like:

Personally I'd like to see a tag for big_cat (though that specific term might be confusing) since it is an identifiable category within the feline umbrella to the point you can classify fantasy/generic felines with it.

regsmutt said:
It's both a category tag and a specific species tag. Individual species are undertagged and generic fox-like canines get tagged as fox and it's unclear if that should even be allowed. If you want red foxes your options are the underused red fox tag or the fox category tag with various untagged species and generic foxes. It's... not good.

can we plz stick to cats, it's confusing enough:/

regsmutt said:
Personally I'd like to see a tag for big_cat (though that specific term might be confusing) since it is an identifiable category within the feline umbrella to the point you can classify fantasy/generic felines with it.

I'd definitly support that, seems helpfull and I can't think of any disadvantages.

MyNameIsOver20charac said:
can we plz stick to cats, it's confusing enough:/

Haha, not trying to change the subject, just using that tag as an example of a similar situation to explain why I don't like using a similar solution. Basically I don't like the idea of using the same tag as both a specific species and a group of species.

Whoa, this whole topic is just a pool of gray.

I mean I can't blame the guy for wanting 'Cat' to mean'Housecat'
Since that is the first thing (for me anyway) that comes to mind when I hear it.

Though there is a hand full of people who would also use the word 'cat' to
describe a small tiger, leopard cub and so on. Plus if this went through
there is a chance this topic would show up:

"Big_Cat -> Cat"
Which is a whole other confusing can of worms on its own without a straight answer. T T;)

Sorry m8 but for the sack of keeping things simple, I just can't get behind
this. Could cause a domino effect; Ya know?

Notkastar said:
Whoa, this whole topic is just a pool of gray.

I mean I can't blame the guy for wanting 'Cat' to mean'Housecat'
Since that is the first thing (for me anyway) that comes to mind when I hear it.

Though there is a hand full of people who would also use the word 'cat' to
describe a small tiger, leopard cub and so on. Plus if this went through
there is a chance this topic would show up:

"Big_Cat -> Cat"
Which is a whole other confusing can of worms on its own without a straight answer. T T;)

Sorry m8 but for the sack of keeping things simple, I just can't get behind
this. Could cause a domino effect; Ya know?

There's not really too much grey here. The cat tag is already (supposed) to be used only for domestic cats/wildcats and not for generic felines or as a synonym for feline. The question is if it should be changed to 'housecat' or 'domestic_cat' for clarity or left alone.

As far as 'big_cat' goes I don't disagree that a different name would prevent tagging confusion, I'm just unsure what an alternative would be. I can think of two alternatives- big_feline (disadvantage: nobody uses the phrase 'big feline') and panthera (disadvantage: technical/obscure term, refers to a smaller number of species, can't be used for generic/fantasy/prehistoric species). The right name and definition would need to be discussed before making the tag.

But if the term 'big cat' gets used for the tag (if the tag gets made at all), the answer to attempts to implicate big_cat to cat has a pretty straight answer- no, 'cat' is a specific species not an umbrella group.

MyNameIsOver20charac said:
...no? you'd have no posts tagged cat but a lot of housecat posts tagged as just feline, right?

Yep. This is what I get for trying to post while sleepy. The rest of the post stands, though. -- you'd have a bunch of domestic-ish cats that are 'visually designed' to look like a domestic cat without any domestic cat tag. Jsut feline.

Take, for example, our dear Regsmutt's current avatar/icon/thing: Aside of the dog and it's tags, it's tagged 'cat, feline and mammal.' ... but it's clearly intended to be a domestic cat. if cat -> feline, then...

Also, in case you've missed that: housecat is currently aliased to cat, so whatever we do we'll probably have to fix that.

That goes without saying. Unless stuff's changed in the last half decade, you actually have to manually break all of the aliases/implications before you can alias a tag. I think. It's also been 5 years, so... the memory's a bit fuzzy.

A

ctually, thinking about it, couldn't that be part of the reason for the problem: whenever somebody tags housecat it becomes cat, which is like the vaguest tag ever. No wonder it's a mess!

The vaguest tag ever is probably 'fur' ;) but yeah. It's pretty vague in a way that the canine grouping isn't. This small woofy thing is a dog, not a canine. :)

regsmutt said:
It's both a category tag and a specific species tag. Individual species are undertagged and generic fox-like canines get tagged as fox and it's unclear if that should even be allowed. If you want red foxes your options are the underused red fox tag or the fox category tag with various untagged species and generic foxes. It's... not good.

Sadly, foxes are rarely drawn with a species in mind, despite their being a lot of fun fox breeds out there. Wolves have the same problem, actually. Perhaps even more so: the difference between a 150lb wolf and a 30 lb coyote, visually, isn't much. Especially when they're all 5-7 foot tall, and weight 100-300lbs. And it overlaps with the Fox Problem when you get into critters like non-red/orange foxes.

Personally I'd like to see a tag for big_cat (though that specific term might be confusing) since it is an identifiable category within the feline umbrella to the point you can classify fantasy/generic felines with it.

Well... Panthera is the genus associated with big cats-- lions, tigers, jaguars, and leopards. Snow Leopards have recently been added as well, though they do not roar. (as this is relatively new news, they're apparently a sister to tigers. Neat!) ... and I don't think it's too technical. NO more so than a lot of our tags.

That said, the more expansive definition could include cougars, clouded leopards, and cheetahs, but they're more distantly related to the 'big kitties' and are not part of the Panthera genus.

That said, if lion, tiger, jaguar, leopard and snow leopard imply panthera, you might have some mistagged panthers (but panthers are already a mess.) (also, snow leopard currently (*sigh) implies leopard, so it'd come along whether we want it to or not.) but then what about other big-cat-like-objects?

post #1414685 post #1414682

regsmutt said:
There's not really too much grey here. The cat tag is already (supposed) to be used only for domestic cats/wildcats and not for generic felines or as a synonym for feline. The question is if it should be changed to 'housecat' or 'domestic_cat' for clarity or left alone.

yup, this one is more.. putting our hands on our hips, looking around and going "gosh, this is a mess! Where do we start cleaning?"

(On another thought, if we had big_cat/panthera as a tag, it'd make cleaning out 'cat' easier...)

past that, there's a little bit of talk like "well, y'know, if we cut out that wall over there, we could get that couch outside easier... but then we'd have a hole in the wall..." :)

As far as 'big_cat' goes I don't disagree that a different name would prevent tagging confusion, I'm just unsure what an alternative would be. I can think of two alternatives- big_feline (disadvantage: nobody uses the phrase 'big feline') and panthera (disadvantage: technical/obscure term, refers to a smaller number of species, can't be used for generic/fantasy/prehistoric species). The right name and definition would need to be discussed before making the tag.

Hm... big_cat, Panthera.. large_cat, Large_feline, big_feline... honestly, i think whatever is picked (if any) will work well enough. I'd go for something like big cat, honestly, for the 'other big cat like objects.' :) I dunno.

SnowWolf said:
Sadly, foxes are rarely drawn with a species in mind, despite their being a lot of fun fox breeds out there. Wolves have the same problem, actually. Perhaps even more so: the difference between a 150lb wolf and a 30 lb coyote, visually, isn't much. Especially when they're all 5-7 foot tall, and weight 100-300lbs. And it overlaps with the Fox Problem when you get into critters like non-red/orange foxes.

See, the problem with foxes is that it's not breeds or subspecies, a red fox and a grey fox aren't even related. I've said this before, but "fox" is used to refer to any canine that just kinda looks vaguely foxy.

'Fox' is also used to refer specifically to the red fox. Because this is so common and the species is so common, most people don't feel the need to specify that they're talking about red foxes. Because of this people end up tagging red foxes as 'fox' and nothing else. Despite them being the most common species, there are a little less than 1400 posts tagged as red_fox.

This is pretty similar to how 'cat' is used. Because of this, it's basically guaranteed that if you make 'cat' a category tag it's going to be mostly domestic cats while the domestic cat tag goes mostly unused.

Hm... big_cat, Panthera.. large_cat, Large_feline, big_feline... honestly, i think whatever is picked (if any) will work well enough. I'd go for something like big cat, honestly, for the 'other big cat like objects.' :) I dunno.

I personally like 'big cat' myself because it's just the most common, intuitive term. There's precedent for 'cat' being used in tags already, saber-toothed_cat comes to mind, I don't think it'll be TOO confusing.

regsmutt said:
See, the problem with foxes is that it's not breeds or subspecies, a red fox and a grey fox aren't even related. I've said this before, but "fox" is used to refer to any canine that just kinda looks vaguely foxy.

Breed was an unfortunately slip of the tongue, to be honest. I know this information. I'm a bit embarrassed, honestly.

I personally like 'big cat' myself because it's just the most common, intuitive term. There's precedent for 'cat' being used in tags already, saber-toothed_cat comes to mind, I don't think it'll be TOO confusing.

I agree. :)

Housecat

+1 for either house_cat or domestic_cat, as big_cat can be taken as a reference to size alone.

Sharp_Coyote said:
Housecat

post #555232

Oof, I didn't think that my suggestion would open this big a can of worms. But it's clear that "cat" is just too vague a word to be used accurately by the majority of the users...