Posted under Tag/Wiki Projects and Questions
I've noticed the "small_dom_big_sub" tag (along with its inverse), and was wondering if there was something similar when it comes to Predator/Prey.
Is there a tag for when the prey is dominating the predator, and vice versa? If not, should there be? And what would be the best names for them?
(Apologies if I've put this in the wrong category, or if it's an improper use of the forum in general. I'm new to this.)
Updated by regsmutt
I added a note on that and the potential domination and submissive aspect to the predator/prey wiki.
Also, we have a Do we have a tag for that? thread where these questions go.
Updated by anonymous
abadbird said:
role_reversalI added a note on that and the potential domination and submissive aspect to the predator/prey wiki.
Also, we have a Do we have a tag for that? thread where these questions go.
I don't think role_reversal really applies to these universally, especially with the definition for role_reversal given. The problem is that in furry art species are sometimes chosen/paired arbitrarily and predator/prey dynamics don't factor into it.
These all involve a prey species being dominant to a predator, but role reversal doesn't appear to be happening.
post #1314700post #343226post #498470
Updated by anonymous
Did you read my edits? I've already covered that. Here's what I added:
The domination and submissive tags and their subsets may also apply to such posts where a power relationship is established.
Tag with role_reversal too if the would-be prey character is dominant and the predator is submissive.
I've bolded the conditional clauses in this post, which comprise more than half of what I added. I've changed my note for role_reversal to be more in line with our wiki definition for it (last updated 2011).
Updated by anonymous
Ugh. I think I was at least a little rude. Sorry. That's basically why I avoid these discussions and consecutive posts per day/week/thread.
Let's try again.
First, I don't like the globally agreed upon definition of role reversal. I believe any character behaving opposite of how they normally do is "reversing their role", regardless of any other context. But, no, the character must behave opposite how they normally do toward someone and, "usually" (whatever that means in practice), that second character assumes the first character's normal behavior or role.
A situation in which someone adopts a role the reverse of that which they normally assume in relation to someone else, who typically assumes their role in exchange.
That also implies a set of expectations (i.e., known, normal behaviors for each character), and most likely a fair bit of forethought and premeditation from one or each character (e.g., prior agreements, setting rules, setting aside time and even props, etc.). Truly impromptu role reversal is a feat of wit, clever improvisation, and understanding, so it's rare and difficult in real life. In art, however, I imagine much planning of the role reversal happens almost as normal when planning a piece of art, but as another layer of consideration (like planning to draw a trap character while leaving enough clues for the audience to spot the trap). In most cases, the audience must guess the planned-impromptu balance of a post depicting role reversal because such posts are single-panel still images, incapable of expressing scene progression.
The problem, then, and how this relates to the discussion at hand, is how to spot and then tag role reversal given the presence, and especially lack, of potential clues. role_reversal needs clues to justify the tag, but how strong and involved must their presentation be? As with gender tags, the decision must be left to interpretation and the tagger's judgement, as the evidence is qualitative and unique to every post or scenario. On that note, it must be said that role_reversal is 100% Tag What You Know: it describes high context interactions that depend entirely upon outside knowledge of characters' normal, expected behaviors, or some interpretation thereof (see post #528985). Presently, either you know the characters or the tag is meaningless.
The central question here, finally, is asking if role_reversal should be tagged where we have no solid clues of reversed roles other than the prey species exuding more power or assertiveness in an interaction than the predator. Does merely including a species bias expectations? Further muddying the waters, do anthro versions of real animals carry the same expectations as their real, feral forms, and, what's more, should they? Can we credibly anthropomorphize real animals' positions and tendencies as predators and prey into the dominant and submissive behaviors of anthros as "roles" that can be "reversed"? For this to work, anthros of predator species must carry the expectations of dominance and prey the expectations of submission. These are big questions that lead to bigger questions.
I do believe anthropomorphizing animal behaviors, in addition to their appearances, is an integral part of furry culture. I've seen enough anthros emulating or referring to their feral counterparts to verify an inclination among artists toward anthropomorphizing animal behaviors, perhaps seen most in anthro canines begging, using or mentioning bones, and speaking in baby talk. Even with fewer context clues, popular culture has developed certain iconological themes for dangerous, potentially people-killing predators like wolves and big cats as aggressive alphas, and for fragile prey like rabbits and birds as timid, soft, and skittish critters. I contend these themes are well-represented in furry art.
We would sooner expect a smaller, lithe rabbit and larger, muscular lion than the opposite, and then for artists to play up those attributes with fitting behaviors. The reversal of such expected behaviors across a pair of characters qualifies for role_reversal. In a predator/prey scenario, I see prey acting forceful and predators acting meek as reversed roles. I would go as far as saying any portrayal of paired characters that seems opposite of expectations is good enough for role_reversal. I don't know these characters, except Nick Wilde of course, yet their behaviors struck me as distinctly unexpected, given what I did recognize, and befitting of role_reversal.
post #1316999 post #1282797 post #1319288
Tagging like that, someone more knowledgeable will inevitably come along and say such-and-such characters were in-character, one or both just has a contrarian design, and that role_reversal doesn't apply. It's not manageable, unless one solipsistically deletes the tag for every pairing they don't know about.
But, really, do what you want. Revert my wiki changes, keep them, change them, link this thread, invalidate role_reversal because it's TWYK, whatever. I'm satisfied now.
Updated by anonymous
I read your edits I just didn't necessarily agree with them. I won't disagree that species stereotypes do play into character design choices, but this isn't universal. In the posts I selected there isn't anything unexpected about the character designs for their species, but there's not much to suggest there's play going on with them. They still meet both criteria for 'a power dynamic is established' and 'the prey character is dominant'.
In your examples the first one has other cues for role reversal with the top being smaller and significantly less muscular. The second is a bit more ambiguous without being aware that Zootopia directly deals with predator/prey themes since it lacks the physical cues of the first and foxes are not predators of antelopes. The last really doesn't look like 'role reversal' at all any more than any picture of a character riding a feral carnivore does.
Updated by anonymous
