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ANNOUNCEMENT: e621 changeover, new policy, next steps

In category: General

Hey folks;

this is a formal forum post from me, Varka (the new owner of e621), informing everyone of the details of the changeover, new site policy, and next steps for the future - as well as giving you all opportunity to ask any questions you may have. I may not be able to answer all of your questions, but I'll do my best.

First of all - the changeover. e621 was passed onto me by Arcturus (the previous owner of e621), because he no longer wished to be the target of harassment (and 'far worse', as he mentioned in his parting statements) - and was given to me because he trusted me to do carry e621 into the future.

The site landed in my lap literally 4 hours before I left for Germany to the awesome Eurofurence - and (as several people at the convention can attest), I spent most of my free time when I wasn't having the time of my life working on getting the site up and running - which I probably shouldn't have done... But anyway, the site is now back up and working well (aside from a few broken resized images).

Secondly - the new policy. e621, in my opinion, suffered considerably due to its less-than-amicable attitude towards artists requesting their work to be taken down from the site - and because of a general lack of respect to artists and their wishes (who, realistically, are the foundation of the furry art community).

as a result, I'm implementing a newer, more artist-friendly takedown policy which will hopefully provide less of a barrier for artists who wish to have their artwork taken down (as DMCA notifications are a pain in the ass to write - as well as respond to, because they're so often incorrectly used).

In addition, I'm making a big effort to increase the accountability and documentation surrounding significant moderator and admin activity, to ensure that any takedowns, bans, right revocations and so on are handled professionally and respectfully - as well as allowing us to look back over this information later in case of appeals and so on.

Thirdly - next steps. The biggest thing I wish to improve with e621 is artist involvement; there are many things which can be done which will turn a previously negative outlook ('Who uploaded my art to e621? I want it removed') into a positive one - where artists are correctly attributed for their work, retain control over their work on the site.

I'd also like to ensure they are even given the tools they need to continue being artists - such as 'order print' links to Inkbunny for example, or 'Commission Information for this artist' links that point to an address of the artist's choice.

While small, I feel these changes can have a massive positive effect on the entire community without significantly impacting it for those browsing and viewing art, and by allowing artists to voluntarily post their own work and have suitable controls over them, could draw even more content to the site.

As anybody who already knows me will attest to, I tend to be pretty neutral and considerate in how I handle issues; running Bad Dragon has taught me a lot about the importance and value of policies and procedure when it comes to managing complicated and/or professional things, and I'm trying to apply some of the best bits of what I learned to e621.

So, please don't be alarmed when things seem a bit more 'formal' in terms of how things are done. It's for the best :p

Anyway; that's about it - no further significant changes are anticipated (aside from bug fixes, and later on maybe a few of the 'next steps' mentioned), and I welcome any and all feedback regarding these, both via email ([email protected] - preferred if you wish to keep things private), or via comment below.

tl:dr; - it's all mine, bitches


... Okay then, first. Brought to my attention by the recent alias request for biodiesel_(artist) → muzz... The naming policy -- is that staying the same or changing?

The old policy, if I remember correctly, was that the ideal was to use an artist's real name if it was acquirable, as that would be unchanging (99.9% of the time), whereas many artists go through several aliases. The idea being to have the least hassle in setting up aliases for changing artist names, since then each new name could just be aliased back to the real name, instead of shifting aliases again and again whenever a new name is used.

Obviously other places have, ah, different policies. I mean, WikiFur as an example: basically refuses to use real names unless it could be called criminal negligence.

Anyways, your opinion/intended policy on this is what?


What about the full e621 2.2 layout that was planned? Surely we're continuing with that?

TonyLemur
Former Staff
7 years ago
2012 alpha_channel arm_support border canine cute female feral fox happy jungledyret_hugo mammal open_mouth rita_(jungledyret) simple_background solo table tonythefox_(artist) transparent_background

Rating: Safe
Score: 30
User: TonyLemur
Date: July 22, 2012

acct0283476 said:
The old policy, if I remember correctly, was that the ideal was to use an artist's real name if it was acquirable, as that would be unchanging (99.9% of the time), whereas many artists go through several aliases. The idea being to have the least hassle in setting up aliases for changing artist names, since then each new name could just be aliased back to the real name, instead of shifting aliases again and again whenever a new name is used.

This is just my opinion and in no way official but personally I prefer having the most commonly used aliased used. For example, if all of Os's artwork has the signature Os, has an FA account called Os, and basically always goes as Os, i'd rather have the tag os than joshua_frinkle.


Hurray e261.net will live on! However with adding a new "Do Not Post" policy how is it going to be any different from fchan or the other myriad of boring ass boards that have DNP policies.

A DNP policy condemns e621 and will give rise to some other board that doesn't filter content.


lorpy said:
A DNP policy condemns e621 blah blah blah baw baw baw.

I hate to burst your bubble, but e621's had an avoid posting list for a very long time:
http://e926.net/wiki/show?title=avoid_posting


ikdind said:
I hate to burst your bubble, but e621's had an avoid posting list for a very long time:
http://e926.net/wiki/show?title=avoid_posting

And half or more of the items on the AVOID list are actually on e621..


Varka said:
I'd also like to ensure they are even given the tools they need to continue being artists - such as 'order print' links to Inkbunny for example, or 'Commission Information for this artist' links that point to an address of the artist's choice.

I like the idea of this. My sister Retasha has been looking for a site to advertise commissions on for a while, and e621 has given her quite a bit of traffic since I uploaded her art here. Also, how good is Inkbunny in terms of ease of use and fees? (Is it better than DeviantArt?)


lorpy said:
And half or more of the items on the AVOID list are actually on e621..

There's the flag-for-deletion tool, as well as forum #162 which you can use to bring the offending images to the admins' attention. Either way, this site relies on its userbase to properly tag and flag images, as the admins can't know everything that is or is not allowed to be posted.

Edit: Also, the admins can't maintain a 24-hour constant watch over the site's content, so the response time from admins will be determined by the length of the FFD queue, the frequency of admins' visits, and the quality of reports.

A good report (historically) would very briefly summarize why an image deserves to be deleted, and provide a supporting link if possible.

Previously, FFDs with no reason or FFDs that read "baw baw baw I hate this", especially on a poorly tagged image, was a sure-fire to have the deletion ignored, and I don't see why that would change. You may even get action taken against your account for wasting the admins' time.


I'm totally cool with taking stuff down if the artist who did it wants it to be taken down (which has already been happening to some extent) but I think that the two principles of e621 that I don't want to lose are:

  • Anything posted to a freely accessible site like FA is fair game to post until the artist explicitly says they don't want it to be on e621.
  • Anything containing a licensed character that the artist doesn't own is fair game, no matter what, and will not be taken down.

I know getting on the artist's good side is nice but I think (as an artist myself) that these principles are universal and should be understood whether you like them or not.


lorpy said:
And half or more of the items on the AVOID list are actually on e621..

While I normally hate to suggest harsh measures against people not intending to be jackasses, I'm starting to think a policy of 'Post DNP, get a ban' might be a good idea. It doesn't have to be a long-term ban (just something like three days or a week), but we really do need to get people to lose this 'it happens all the time, it must be fine' mindset. It looked to me before like most of the time DNP things got deleted without even a warning to the poster (unless they were SexyFur, of course).

I mean for fuck's sake, a lot of people claim to think there isn't a DNP list even after posting, when there's a humongous, bold-text warning and link to the DNP list on the upload page...

:/


Perhaps if you try to tag someone on the DNP list, you get told you cant upload becosue its on the DNP list. and you you don't tag the artist (Whos on DNP) then your banned for "Bypassing DNP protection"


Varka said:
Thirdly - next steps. The biggest thing I wish to improve with e621 is artist involvement; there are many things which can be done which will turn a previously negative outlook ('Who uploaded my art to e621? I want it removed') into a positive one - where artists are correctly attributed for their work, retain control over their work on the site.

I'm super glad you picked up the reins Varka, but at the same time it sounds like you're just planning on trying to turn e621 into FurAffinity. Pretty much everything you mention is already in place over there (or planned for and easily added). This presents several problems:

- Honestly, unless FA is really looking like it's going to die, I think fragmenting an artists galleries into multiple sites is just a bad idea, and one that probably won't happen. FA has a solid foothold and unless they start screwing up a lot more than usual, few people will even want to leave.

- I don't think anyone comes to e621 to order prints of artwork. The site has been a free-wheeling and taggerific imageboard. It's like Fchan, but without being bogged down with such complete and utter fail. If you have a goal of trying to monetize e621, I can't see that being successful. There are plenty of other options available which don't have paywalls (even if it's a soft and fluffy paywall which doesn't restrict much) and people will migrate to them.

- Respecting artists is great, but at the same time there are certain facts that have to be faced -- ESPECIALLY when dealing with furry artists. It seems like every week there's another relatively popular artists which goes batshit nuts and deletes their entire FA gallery. Sites like e621, Paws, and yes, even Fchan, allow people to still have access to art which has otherwise been bawleted. Some might say this is bad, but I think it's a good example of one of the best features of the Internet: Very rarely is anything posted publicly online ever really gone. For furry art, imageboards are a big part of filling this role.

Just my thoughts. There are a lot of people who range from nanny to nazi which would appear to love nothing more than to lock the site down and turn it into Fchan. I lean to the other side -- far from anarchy, to be sure, but some believe that fewer rules is better than many.


^ this. And to expand on my last post in light of what drnick said, I think that things should be taken down only if the artist says so after it's already been posted (unless they were already on the DNP list). Most people should just ask for it to be taken down, in which case we would comply and everyone would be happy. Anyone who makes a big deal out of it (who isn't trying to sell their work) is a bitch and shouldn't keep us from posting things in the first place.


locum said:
Perhaps if you try to tag someone on the DNP list, you get told you cant upload becosue its on the DNP list. and you you don't tag the artist (Whos on DNP) then your banned for "Bypassing DNP protection"

Problem: There are exceptions to someone being on the DNP list, such as things they don't own the copyright for.

Dogenzaka
Privileged
7 years ago

How will picture approval be handled? will it be the same as before where anything gets through except DNP material, or will there be some new standards when it comes to approving pictures?


lorpy said:
And half or more of the items on the AVOID list are actually on e621..

You apparently do not seem to be aware of the huge number of people who get banned for DNP items. Some slip through, but it is an instant ban when caught. No second chance.

Hell, under the old adminship, you probably would've been banned right now for complaining about the site having a DNP list. They took that shit seriously.

Are you referring to work by DNP artists which was of copyrighted material such as Pokemon/StarFox/Digimon/Etc? In which case even being on the DNP list does not protect their art from being posted.


drnick said:
I'm super glad you picked up the reins Varka, but at the same time it sounds like you're just planning on trying to turn e621 into FurAffinity. Pretty much everything you mention is already in place over there (or planned for and easily added). This presents several problems:

- Honestly, unless FA is really looking like it's going to die, I think fragmenting an artists galleries into multiple sites is just a bad idea, and one that probably won't happen. FA has a solid foothold and unless they start screwing up a lot more than usual, few people will even want to leave

FA screws up enough there is a need for multiple sites... Besides e621 I will normally go to inkbunny, and will attempt to avoid FurAffinity at all costs.

(As I tell MANY artists. If you stick to only FA.. you only get about 60% of the fandom)


The intention here is not to rely upon a DNP of any kind (in fact, it's news to me we actually had a DNP already), but instead to give artists tools to (for example) subscribe to their artist tag and be notified when new art tagged with their name is uploaded, so they can request a takedown - pretty much exactly how YouTube do things, except without image fingerprinting (yet).

The goal is to retain the 'anything publically posted is fair game' ethos, but to temper it with the ability for artists to get their shit taken down if they want. Yes, this means bawwlets can and will happen on e621 too, but it should NOT mean a reduction in the amount of art uploaded. In addition, we don't want to become another Fchan (ie, a hotbed of drama and argument) by instigating and enforcing a DNP list.

So basically, I'm not intending to move forward with a DNP, as it's really the artist's responsibility to ensure their work stays off the site (in an ideal world it'd be like Youtube, where you just upload a ton of your artwork and blacklist it all) - and instead rely upon making it a little easier for the artist to be proactive and ask for stuff to be taken down.


Aurali said:
FA screws up enough there is a need for multiple sites... Besides e621 I will normally go to inkbunny, and will attempt to avoid FurAffinity at all costs.

The single most common reason I avoid FA is that it is a drama clusterfuck. I swear I can't go 5 minutes without coming across some drama by accident. It just leaves a horrible taste in my mouth, and I want nothing to do with the childish way people act over there.

Varka said:
it's news to me we actually had a DNP already
[...]
[we're] without image fingerprinting (yet).

I'm pretty sure we already have image fingerprinting on e621. Admittedly a really weak one that fails to even the slightest modification of an image. But it still fails if you attempt to upload an identical image that was already deleted.

And artists were able to get their stuff took down. One of my favorite examples is of my beloved Inuki, who made a polite request takedown, who not only had her stuff immediately taken down, but also had some longtime e621 members who were heckling her permanently banned, which impressed on Inuki so much she actually decided to leave most of her artwork up on e621 after all.

EDIT: Here's a link to the utterly disgusting behavior by Kitsu, and where the admins handled it quite nicely, and all, and <3 Inuki. My favorite part of that thread is where mellis is like "I see a simple solution to this problem" and bans Kitsu on the spot.

http://e926.net/forum/show/5613

(I am not biased at all, and the fact that I am a huge fan of Inuki is not in any way at all clouding my judgement <_____< )

Inu said:
You guys are cool really. Cant tell you how happy Im that this goes so smooth and easy. Really don't mind some pics here and there and people can rage and vent on them XD

But 400 pics is just way to much.

thanks a lot again ^^

Inu said:
really no problem guys most of the credit goes to the admins here who are far farrrrrrr away from what people told me about them. Im actually a fan cause this site is cool for really finding nice rare piccs and even so there is rage here and there it doesnt bother :3 so no need to add anything more than to flag the piccs,clean a bit and let people do and post what they feel like (but not again 200+ in one flood xD;;;; )

Reality is, don't let the hype get to you. The old admins were quite reasonable about takedowns. And I suspect unfortunately, you've just put a big target on your forehead for people to start spreading lies about the way you handle this site, same as they were spread about Arc. She was a good person, and I miss her a lot already.


Marbles said:
Reality is, don't let the hype get to you. The old admins were quite reasonable about takedowns.

Well, to be honest that's more of recently (last couple years anyways). Arcturus has stated that they were more confrontational and inquisitive about takedown or DNP requests in the past, which is when they got that reputation of being uncooperative with artists. It's not like their reputation came from nowhere altogether, it's just rather exaggerated and outdated.

otterface
Contributor
7 years ago

Varka said:

Thirdly - next steps. The biggest thing I wish to improve with e621 is artist involvement; there are many things which can be done which will turn a previously negative outlook ('Who uploaded my art to e621? I want it removed') into a positive one - where artists are correctly attributed for their work, retain control over their work on the site.

I'd also like to ensure they are even given the tools they need to continue being artists - such as 'order print' links to Inkbunny for example, or 'Commission Information for this artist' links that point to an address of the artist's choice.

This is awesome news! Sefeiren and I have uploaded most of her gallery here, and we have always found e621 to be a great source of new watchers. FA is nice, but it can't match e621's ease of use; search for a keyword or two and you can find exactly what you're looking for on e621. FA's tags are for the most part ineffective, nonsensical, or nonexistent.

People keep calling this site just another image board, but its the tags and the community willing to make those tags as descriptive and exhaustive as possible that really set this place apart from fchan (ugh) or something like lulz or The Goddamned Furry Board. There is no substitute for e621.

I look forward to the slightly new direction, and I can't wait for the links to Inkbunny and artist commission information to implemented.


I'm so happy it's back up :) when I read Arcturus's statement saying the dream was over i :`(

thank you Varka


drnick said:
- Honestly, unless FA is really looking like it's going to die, I think fragmenting an artists galleries into multiple sites is just a bad idea, and one that probably won't happen. FA has a solid foothold and unless they start screwing up a lot more than usual, few people will even want to leave.

I've found this site to be much more reliable for finding new artists than FA is, since it's easier to search on. Most people on FA don't tag their work very well, so having other people able to do so is a major aid.

drnick said:
- I don't think anyone comes to e621 to order prints of artwork.

Well, not yet anyways. It would be child's play to link someone over to e621 via a FA/DA journal entry if they want to buy a print. And if e621 gets a kickback then it will lower the site's running costs.

On the topic of how the site will be run: Are the mascots still going to be used? I really liked that idea, if it's still an option.


Shatari said:
I've found this site to be much more reliable for finding new artists than FA is, since it's easier to search on. Most people on FA don't tag their work very well, so having other people able to do so is a major aid.

People on FA either

* Make jokes in tags
* Make tags that don't exist to increase views
* Make no tags altogether..

And I've been complaining about this since they started the tag system.


Aurali said:
People on FA either

* Make jokes in tags
* Make tags that don't exist to increase views
* Make no tags altogether..

And I've been complaining about this since they started the tag system.

FA has a tagging system?


Thanks everyone for your feedback; in light of your comments I think we're probably moving in the right direction (which is half the battle), and I think with enough work we can likely double the amount of visitors to e621 without too much effort :p

otterface said:
This is awesome news! Sefeiren and I have uploaded most of her gallery here, and we have always found e621 to be a great source of new watchers.

I look forward to the slightly new direction, and I can't wait for the links to Inkbunny and artist commission information to implemented.

On a side note, I happen to be a big fan of Sefeiren's work, and I'm glad you both see fit to upload it all here. Keep up the awesome artwork =)


drnick said:
- Honestly, unless FA is really looking like it's going to die, I think fragmenting an artists galleries into multiple sites is just a bad idea, and one that probably won't happen. FA has a solid foothold and unless they start screwing up a lot more than usual, few people will even want to leave.

FA itself, as a website, may have a strong foothold, but some of the artist's don't... (Adam Wan, Java, Ebon Lupus, Edis Krad, etc...)

deadjackal said:
FA has a tagging system?

Oh yes...I use it often...same with YouTube as well! (I know, your query was sarcasm, but I answered it anyway lol)


Isn't there an ability to have posts auto-deleted if an artists work is blacklisted (removal request) from the site?.

Jazz
Privileged
7 years ago
anthro canine fantastic_mr_fox fox kristofferson male mammal marlfox solo unknown_artist

Rating: Safe
Score: 24
User: Lxs371
Date: January 18, 2010

I think it's a bad idea, because automatic deletion system is abused with ease


Marbles said:
And artists were able to get their stuff took down. One of my favorite examples is of my beloved Inuki, who made a polite request takedown, who not only had her stuff immediately taken down, but also had some longtime e621 members who were heckling her permanently banned, which impressed on Inuki so much she actually decided to leave most of her artwork up on e621 after all.

EDIT: Here's a link to the utterly disgusting behavior by Kitsu, and where the admins handled it quite nicely, and all, and <3 Inuki. My favorite part of that thread is where mellis is like "I see a simple solution to this problem" and bans Kitsu on the spot.

http://e926.net/forum/show/5613

(I am not biased at all, and the fact that I am a huge fan of Inuki is not in any way at all clouding my judgement <_____< )

I have since apologized for how poorly I handled that. I wouldn't have minded at all if the artwork she wanted taken down was able to be attained properly (even if it required payment). Instead of it being "Stop reducing my potential sales" it was "No one can have it but me".

Also, note that it was all completely limited to discussion, I didn't do things like reuploading the images after having their metadata modified (thus changing their md5 hash, to bypass the dupe checker). The worst and only thing I did was create an angry forum post.

Regardless, I am doing just fine with my alt accounts, although the low posts-per-day restriction is frustrating. Although evidentially people enjoy the absence of a high-quality flood of posts.