Fetishism, toxicity and chain-downvoting.

In category: General

Recently artist @abobarseem has received a lot of negativity for posting pictures featuring humiliation and tiny penis fetishes. Downvotes and nasty comments and long comment chains on their art.

It's not surprising for a few people to lash out. New users, non-furs and others; artists who dabble in unusual topics and fetishes should expect this sort of lash back when creating non-mainstream works. (And hell I'm sure Smudge thrives on the tears of normies when they first witness his art.) But the last three days have had an astonishing communal reaction that's frankly shameful and very much so uncalled for.

For an artist with barely a page of submissions, mainly being sketches and WIP, barely seven months old on the site, and clearly making an effort, the reaction is insulting to the community and the owners and moderators of e6.

On behalf of everyone sane I want to say we're sorry Abobarseem. You and your art is welcome here and we're glad to have your contributions.

The usual update your blacklist spiel is warranted. It's there for YOU, the end user of e6, and your enjoyment. But specifically I want to address the comments and voting habits.

Of Abobarseem's most recent eight uploads there have been 159 comments. Holy smokes! Must have been some good pics with unheard-of amounts of discussion and critique?? No. It's been a slurry of garbage criticism, kinkshaming and an artist becoming more and more tired of responding to it all.
The uploads have a combined score of -163 and while Abobarseem calmly explains their reasons for liking their fetishes and drawing their art (which and artist should never have to do btw,) it seems all the reason is whisked away by oppressive downvoting of the artist on their own work.
All that's left is bickering and downright childish nitpicking of Abobarseem's perfectly valid explanations.

Way to put someone on the stand and then take away the microphone people.

It wasn't enough to not hold their tongues, these people really had to humiliate a person.

Disgusting.

e621 separates itself from other furry websites by being very focused on two things. Creativity and effective indexing. And this is not the environment that will attract talented artists to fill your screens with fucking Pokémon art. If you wont blacklist it shut up, if you wont shut up then leave.

/rant

Genjar
Former Staff
10 days ago
2011 annoyed antennae arthropod biped black_markings blue_eyes clear_membrane clothed clothing crossed_arms cute duo feral front_view green_body human insect insect_wings lifting lol_comments male mammal markings moth nisimawari pellucid_hawk_moth portrait quadruped shirt shorts simple_background solo_focus spread_wings standing three-quarter_portrait three-quarter_view traditional_media_(artwork) watercolor_(artwork) white_background wings

Rating: Safe
Score: 268
User: Genjar
Date: May 29, 2013

I voted some of those down because of the wonky anatomy. Don't automatically assume that downvotes are because of fetishes.


GtheOtter said:
oppressive downvoting

No.


While it's true that we don't codify discrimination against particular fetishes -- that is, it's not MANDATORY to marginalize particular fetishes, it's not obvious that any particular fetish actually IS equally welcome, or should be equally welcome. It's not even clear that it's theoretically *possible* to arrange things so that all fetishes are equally welcome.

Shaming has a function (enforcement of social norms), and if you say it's not ok to explicitly shame, then people who were significantly motivated to do so will just find ways to *implicitly*/indirectly shame.

In addition, the failure to point out that the theme of the pictures in question is shaming, when you yourself are attempting to shame people for shaming, is suspicious.

It's really not surprising that if the artist puts shaming on the table, people feel more free to respond with shaming. Comparing these posts to the posts which don't contain shaming themes, this pattern seems to hold up : controversy and downvotes in response to shaming themes. Indifference or upvotes on other posts.

It may be undesirable (or it may not), but given that the theme IS shaming, I think trying to prevent shaming responses is like trying to fight gravity.


People can downvotes what they want as long as they don't shit up the comments about how they dislike it.


Chaser said:
as long as they don't shit up the comments about how they dislike it.

Or, you know, simply state that they dislike it. That's probably why people get confused when they're told it's not actually against the rules for people to dislike things they like.


Chaser said:
People can downvotes what they want as long as they don't shit up the comments about how they dislike it.

Agreed, bitching about something you hate/dislike doesn't help the artists and is a waste of time. I've seen some very virulent comments about something someone doesn't like; people can dislike all they want, but they shouldn't be confrontational or punks about it.


Cubs are for pedophiles hur dur
Everyone who plays games or watches movies is a murdurer hur dur

I looked at it and it's not even that bad, the only thing that's there is text hurting Lucario lovers' feelings.

I mean, I did feel like "poor Lucario, he brings flowers then gets his feelings hurt, besides a comment how his pi- heart is big"

But I don't care enough to downvote or make a comment insulting the artist lul


DelurC said:
Cubs are for pedophiles hur dur
Everyone who plays games or watches movies is a murdurer hur dur

That's already covered by the Harassing or Defamatory portion of the rules.


Thank you everyone for your concerns. I'm a new artist, started drawing for 7 months now and I'm happy with the progress. Slowly getting better.

I've made SPH pics before and got negative reactions, and then I stopped. Now I returned and braced myself for the hate. I shouldn't had replied to the comments, that made the situation even worse.

I've received messages telling me how my art sucks and such. This used to hurt me back then when I first started, but now it makes me want to get better and better. But what bothers me is whenever I draw something featuring humiliation and SPH, which is my fetish and there are people who like it and there's not much art of this fetish, people get to my throat.


You know, on a site that hosts the cheese grater image, and pokemon snuff porn, and other wild stuff, I truly, truly don't understand why people are getting so upset over SPH. Just blacklist and move on.

I understand running into a kink you weren't aware of before and being disgusted by it and all, but again, blacklist and move on. Leaving insults and non constructive criticism doesn't really accomplish anything aside from showing everybody how much you hate something. I just don't get it, man.


AboBarseem said:
Thank you everyone for your concerns. I'm a new artist, started drawing for 7 months now and I'm happy with the progress. Slowly getting better.

I've made SPH pics before and got negative reactions, and then I stopped. Now I returned and braced myself for the hate. I shouldn't had replied to the comments, that made the situation even worse.

I've received messages telling me how my art sucks and such. This used to hurt me back then when I first started, but now it makes me want to get better and better. But what bothers me is whenever I draw something featuring humiliation and SPH, which is my fetish and there are people who like it and there's not much art of this fetish, people get to my throat.

They could react in a way they do for multitude of reasons, but I won't go into that now.

You shouldn't see it as negative per see, artist create works to convey or incite something. Although, I guess you didn't have either in particular in mind when you started drawing it.

They aren't /attacking/ you personally as a person with first and last name, they would do the same if I drew and posted it. They are attacking the idea. So you shouldn't take any of it personally, unless someone goes to the extremes.

People are consuming your work and care enough to spend energy to give you feedback for it. If you could tell yourself that you draw with intention to incite particular emotion. In this case, negative emotions, it should make it easier for yourself.

Munkelzahn
Privileged
10 days ago

GtheOtter said:
oppressive downvoting

tell me about it!
people downvote my avatar FOR NO REASON
these microoppressions are really getting to me


Munkelzahn said:
tell me about it!
people downvote my avatar FOR NO REASON
these microoppressions are really getting to me

Someone grab Anita Sarkeesian


AboBarseem said:
Thank you everyone for your concerns. I'm a new artist, started drawing for 7 months now and I'm happy with the progress. Slowly getting better.

I've made SPH pics before and got negative reactions, and then I stopped. Now I returned and braced myself for the hate. I shouldn't had replied to the comments, that made the situation even worse.

I've received messages telling me how my art sucks and such. This used to hurt me back then when I first started, but now it makes me want to get better and better. But what bothers me is whenever I draw something featuring humiliation and SPH, which is my fetish and there are people who like it and there's not much art of this fetish, people get to my throat.

Feel free to report the user(s) that harass you over dmails and the likes.


Genjar said:
I voted some of those down because of the wonky anatomy. Don't automatically assume that downvotes are because of fetishes.

Don't automatically assume the post is about only your comment as an isolated incident. Taking things personally is not constructive to the conversation.

The comment chains and the bulk of the conversion concerns the subject matter and the legitimacy of the criticism, not the anatomy.

savageorange said:
While it's true that we don't codify discrimination against particular fetishes -- that is, it's not MANDATORY to marginalize particular fetishes, it's not obvious that any particular fetish actually IS equally welcome, or should be equally welcome. It's not even clear that it's theoretically *possible* to arrange things so that all fetishes are equally welcome.

True there is no explicit rules against certain forms of art and fetishes.... wait... The explicit rules about posting are determined in the 'posting abuse' section of the rules and the laws of the country e621's owners are based in.

As for "possible to arrange things so that all fetishes are equally welcome" that is wrong given the above statement, all fetishes that don't infringe on the above rules and laws are equally welcome.
Until the owner's of e6 make a stance on certain fetishes and/or work they remain perfectly valid on e6 and should be respected.

savageorange said:
Shaming has a function (enforcement of social norms), and if you say it's not ok to explicitly shame, then people who were significantly motivated to do so will just find ways to *implicitly*/indirectly shame.

You imply that because shaming as a function it should be utalised? To put simply: shaming has no place on e6 as it's inherently destructive to the site's goals: to earn money by amassing artists and a community that enjoys those artists and will continue to earn the site money through ad revenue.
As for the follow up statement is it not wrong but it has no effect on the initial scenario (i.e. it doesn't bring about the initial scenario), not to mention you use the slippery-slope fallacy to justify the statment, not consequential but a faux pas.

savageorange said:
In addition, the failure to point out that the theme of the pictures in question is shaming, when you yourself are attempting to shame people for shaming, is suspicious.

Sorry let me be casual for a moment, the rest of your comment is well written and I appreciate the discussion, that was the original intent of my message, but this part is funnily ridiculous. I "failed" to point out the subject matter "Recently artist abobarseem has received a lot of negativity for posting pictures featuring humiliation and tiny penis fetishes." because I assumed any person that is well meaning and/or open to criticism would research the content of my post and conciser my points in the scope of the full issue, not that I actually was ranting. Rather, I didn't address the subject mater, which was intentional. Sorry to harp on that, I imagine that was an oversight.
Also: It's suspicious that I myself am a masochist and enjoy the fetish. Yes, the suspicion is true.

savageorange said:
It's really not surprising that if the artist puts shaming on the table, people feel more free to respond with shaming. Comparing these posts to the posts which don't contain shaming themes, this pattern seems to hold up : controversy and downvotes in response to shaming themes. Indifference or upvotes on other posts.

Yeah I said it myself that an artist should expect such a reaction, it's pretty disgusting.

You haven't said this but I want to put it out there that if someone feels so strongly about a certain content matter they should take to the forums and petition the site owners to change the rules and see for real whether they are in the majority, or the minority. It happened when mlp became a thing and everyone (kinda) was quite civilized with the response of the site-staff.

savageorange said:
It may be undesirable (or it may not), but given that the theme IS shaming, I think trying to prevent shaming responses is like trying to fight gravity.

I see no connection between content matter and reaction. The artist may advocate for the subject of their works (or not do so in the case of satire) but by no means should a consumer necessarily align themselves with the subject. That's debatable on a case-by-case basis, in this scenario it is wrong to do so given my above arguments (saving some communal thing the artist and their fans have build up in time, and I see no fandom in these comment sections.)

Pls more discussion like this, paragraphs and punctuation is nice. Thank you Savageorange.

Chaser said:
People can downvotes what they want as long as they don't shit up the comments about how they dislike it.

They can of course thank you for pointing that out; the OP isn't an attack on personal freedom of expression, I want to make that very clear. It's an attack on the 159 cases of 'shitting up' Abobarseem's pictures.

Munkelzahn said:
tell me about it!
people downvote my avatar FOR NO REASON
these microoppressions are really getting to me

Munk pls, my PC posts. :(


GtheOtter said:

True there is no explicit rules against certain forms of art and fetishes.... wait... The explicit rules about posting are determined in the 'posting abuse' section of the rules and the laws of the country e621's owners are based in.

As for "possible to arrange things so that all fetishes are equally welcome" that is wrong given the above statement, all fetishes that don't infringe on the above rules and laws are equally welcome.

They are equally welcome if everyone was a robot that simply followed the rules and nothing more or less.

It's perfectly clear that not all fetishes are equally welcome on e621. Search scat, cub, vore, etc and check the comments.. They all are permitted to be posted here, but they are clearly not equally welcome as, say, vanilla m/f sex.

Until the owner's of e6 make a stance on certain fetishes and/or work they remain perfectly valid on e6

.. VALID, as in permitted by site rules, yes...

and should be respected.

eh.. They should be treated with decency. I don't think any fetish is the kind of thing that warrants respect.

Even handholding ;)

You imply that because shaming as a function it should be utalised?

Because shaming has a function, it WILL be utilized by people when that function seems expedient or appropriate to them.

Such as you. You utilized shaming in the OP and in your reply, in pursuit of the enforcement of community norms you regard as .. appropriate, let's say.

The following quote is an example.

To put simply: shaming has no place on e6 as it's inherently destructive to the site's goals: to earn money by amassing artists and a community that enjoys those artists and will continue to earn the site money through ad revenue.

..

Sorry to harp on that, I imagine that was an oversight.

Yeah, I didn't see that.

You haven't said this but I want to put it out there that if someone feels so strongly about a certain content matter they should take to the forums and petition the site owners to change the rules and see for real whether they are in the majority, or the minority. It happened when mlp became a thing and everyone (kinda) was quite civilized with the response of the site-staff.

I agree. But I do think it's unlikely that the type of person who tends to leave this kind of comment will do any such thing. I think they on average value the opportunity to complain more than the opportunity to get rid of the things they don't like.

I see no connection between content matter and reaction

Seems like a contradiction with what you said before, that you agreed shaming was a predictable response. I'm not sure what to make of this.

. The artist may advocate for the subject of their works (or not do so in the case of satire) but by no means should a consumer necessarily align themselves with the subject.

Certainly. However, it doesn't seem obvious that they would need to align themselves with the subject, in order to feel that a shaming response was necessary. I think they just have to see an *opportunity to shame*.

Pls more discussion like this, paragraphs and punctuation is nice. Thank you Savageorange.

Haha, that's an unexpected kind of compliment! Thanks.


I'm not sure if it's of interest, but the problem is also likely that the subject isn't just humiliation, but penis humiliation in particular and that the character in question is being reduced to the size of their penis.

Why would this even be of interest? Most of the western world greatly overestimates the average size of a wiener, and how much sausage is actually needed to not only get the job done, but to get the job done well. Porn is mostly to blame for this, and especially furry porn with their ridiculous dong sizes.
Statistically speaking most of our userbase is going to be male, between 18 and 30, doesn't have too much sexual experience (but is used to porn standards), and likely overweight or even obese. Obesity even artificially "shortens" the phallus because fat collects in the groin around and will hide valid length inside it, so people who would be average at normal weight are going to be below average because of their excessive weight.
There is also the still prevalent notion that a big Johnson is required to please your sexual partner, yet most women are actually unable to achieve orgasm by vaginal penetration only, no matter how big the little soldier is.
Now couple these insecurity about their own bodies with the the misinformation going on through ads / bad sex ed / porn and you can kind of see why it would garner such a vocal negative response.

People are likely to have made similar teasing and bullying experiences about their bodies in the past, so this is going to hit pretty close to home for a lot of people.

Alas, none of this excuses harassment, so if someone crosses that line we will step in, provided someone actually reports it.

GtheOtter said:
For an artist with barely a page of submissions, mainly being sketches and WIP, barely seven months old on the site, and clearly making an effort, the reaction is insulting to the community and the owners and moderators of e6.

With the raw amount of comments (and other work on e6) we're literally unable to moderate everything on every upload. If something isn't being reported we're most likely unaware of it happening in the first place.


lul, so we are all fat , and living in basement.


One ball for all mankind.

If people are writing comments that are violating the rules, you can report them.

Munkelzahn
Privileged
9 days ago

DelurC said:
lul, so we are all fat , and living in basement.

I am slender, and my penis is very big


DelurC said:
lul, so we are all fat , and living in basement.

Welcome to statistics.


Munkelzahn said:
I am slender, and my penis is very big

I doubt that, picorulying.


DelurC said:
lul, so we are all fat , and living in basement.

I used to be an athlete, but since my college swimming career has ended, I've become a stick person... :(


@GtheOtter there are rules against being rude and attacking creators. If someone's being rude in the comments, then report them and let admin deal with it. That's their job; we are expected not to do it for them. Report rude comments.

As for downvotes, you have no say in how people vote. You're going to have to accept that and move on.

@abobarseem just keep practicing. Speaking as one artist to another, you will always have critics, no matter how good you get. Learn your medium, learn about the elements of design. Be open to constructive criticism, develop a thick skin to destructive criticism, and keep creating.

Audiences at e621 know what they like, but they're not exactly qualified to judge your work artistically, nor are they often very helpful, educated (in art), or constructive. Hang in there, and don't let them get you down.

The number one thing for any artist is practice, practice, practice!


The point of art is to send a message or cause a reaction. Some art hurts. Doesn't change whether it is. That said, what we vote is our own business. It's our vote.


kamimatsu said:
The point of art is to send a message or cause a reaction. Some art hurts. Doesn't change whether it is. That said, what we vote is our own business. It's our vote.

With traditional art, sure, but I think porn has a bit different agenda.

SnowWolf
Former Staff
9 days ago
black_fur blue_eyes blue_feathers blue_hair equine fan_character feathered_wings feathers female feral flying fur hair hi_res horn mammal multicolored_hair my_little_pony shilokh smile snowdrift snowflake solo star watermark white_feathers winged_unicorn wings

Rating: Safe
Score: 21
User: SnowWolf
Date: July 28, 2012

NotMeNotYou said:
I'm not sure if it's of interest, but the problem is also likely that the subject isn't just humiliation, but penis humiliation in particular and that the character in question is being reduced to the size of their penis.

Why would this even be of interest? Most of the western world greatly overestimates the average size of a wiener, and how much sausage is actually needed to not only get the job done, but to get the job done well. Porn is mostly to blame for this, and especially furry porn with their ridiculous dong sizes.
Statistically speaking most of our userbase is going to be male, between 18 and 30, doesn't have too much sexual experience (but is used to porn standards), and likely overweight or even obese. Obesity even artificially "shortens" the phallus because fat collects in the groin around and will hide valid length inside it, so people who would be average at normal weight are going to be below average because of their excessive weight.
There is also the still prevalent notion that a big Johnson is required to please your sexual partner, yet most women are actually unable to achieve orgasm by vaginal penetration only, no matter how big the little soldier is.
Now couple these insecurity about their own bodies with the the misinformation going on through ads / bad sex ed / porn and you can kind of see why it would garner such a vocal negative response.

People are likely to have made similar teasing and bullying experiences about their bodies in the past, so this is going to hit pretty close to home for a lot of people.

This. Basically, everything about this. this this this.

It's not about how big it is. Too big hurts, even. Despite what porn has shown you, bashing up against the cervix doesn't feel good (for most people)... it's not a sexy pain, it's a deep, sharp pain that says "this part should not be touched like that, stop immediately before you do damage." ... Having a penis inside feels great (to me), but it's one part of a many parted song.


SnowWolf said:
This. Basically, everything about this. this this this.

It's not about how big it is. Too big hurts, even. Despite what porn has shown you, bashing up against the cervix doesn't feel good (for most people)... it's not a sexy pain, it's a deep, sharp pain that says "this part should not be touched like that, stop immediately before you do damage." ... Having a penis inside feels great (to me), but it's one part of a many parted song.

Oh my god, yes. I have accidentally bumped my cervix before with a toy and I actually cried. 0/10 would not recommend.


DelurC said:
With traditional art, sure, but I think porn has a bit different agenda.

Nope. The reaction intended is "aroused".


kamimatsu said:
Nope. The reaction intended is "aroused".

I think some porn is actually meant to be artistic, like that one of the nude lady on a tiger.