fox_whisper85 said:
Even when I do tag things correctly (and I try to the best I can) people still bloody downvote it out of spite. It really annoys me, almost makes me want to ask these people "Gee, who pissed in your cheerios this morning?" Ugh...!

It can eventually self-correct. Because most people who don't know how to blacklist downvote fetish content aren't seeking it out, you'll only get downvotes for the first few days to a week when it's still going to be recent. After it's buried deep enough to no longer pop up when someone who doesn't use their blacklist is browsing, mostly people seeking it out will see it and they'll upvote it. Eventually you'll get back up to the low negatives or even a positive score.

SnowWolf
Former Staff
24 days ago
black_fur blue_eyes blue_feathers blue_hair equine fan_character feathered_wings feathers female feral flying fur hair hi_res horn mammal multicolored_hair my_little_pony shilokh smile snowdrift snowflake solo star watermark white_feathers winged_unicorn wings

Rating: Safe
Score: 21
User: SnowWolf
Date: July 28, 2012

fox_whisper85 said:
Even when I do tag things correctly (and I try to the best I can) people still bloody downvote it out of spite. It really annoys me, almost makes me want to ask these people "Gee, who pissed in your cheerios this morning?" Ugh...!

I know, but *don't* take it personally. Seriously. Life is WAY too short.

and I think some of those people jsut down vote because "no sir, I don't like it" rather than any deliberate malice.

I just try to remember: there is no top score list. Most people don't browse by score, only tag. If you focus on score, you'll only see the same old art. the top images haven't changed too much, over the last few years. Repeat visitors look at the new stuff.

But yeah. I understand. Most of my most downvoted posts are the last 2 dozen images of a nearly 100-page comic that had been finished in the last 3 years since it's last post on the site. Several people were very appreciative. And yet: downvotes. (I can't blame them though. the artist's style basically had a pretty bad turn.) Yet I still feel resentful, because, damn, that wasn't my kink, it wasn't my artist, it wasn't anything to me--I just uploaded it because it was *finished* and yet the readers here had been left hanging for 2 years.

But it's just numbers. I rarely upvote anything because it's annoying to scroll and find the text over there-. It's just numbers. They don't matter.


regsmutt said:
It can eventually self-correct. Because most people who don't know how to blacklist downvote fetish content aren't seeking it out, you'll only get downvotes for the first few days to a week when it's still going to be recent. After it's buried deep enough to no longer pop up when someone who doesn't use their blacklist is browsing, mostly people seeking it out will see it and they'll upvote it. Eventually you'll get back up to the low negatives or even a positive score.

Sadly, I can't say that about my most recent submission, I don't see that ever balancing out.

SnowWolf said:
I know, but *don't* take it personally. Seriously. Life is WAY too short.

and I think some of those people jsut down vote because "no sir, I don't like it" rather than any deliberate malice.

I just try to remember: there is no top score list. Most people don't browse by score, only tag. If you focus on score, you'll only see the same old art. the top images haven't changed too much, over the last few years. Repeat visitors look at the new stuff.

But yeah. I understand. Most of my most downvoted posts are the last 2 dozen images of a nearly 100-page comic that had been finished in the last 3 years since it's last post on the site. Several people were very appreciative. And yet: downvotes. (I can't blame them though. the artist's style basically had a pretty bad turn.) Yet I still feel resentful, because, damn, that wasn't my kink, it wasn't my artist, it wasn't anything to me--I just uploaded it because it was *finished* and yet the readers here had been left hanging for 2 years.

But it's just numbers. I rarely upvote anything because it's annoying to scroll and find the text over there-. It's just numbers. They don't matter.

Unfortunately, I struggle with being positive.


fox_whisper85 said:
Unfortunately, I struggle with being positive.

Have you tried drugs? Not the illegal kind, but therapy might be worth it if you're struggling with depression / anxiety.


NotMeNotYou said:
Have you tried drugs? Not the illegal kind, but therapy might be worth it if you're struggling with depression / anxiety.

Most of it was due to my job situation not being ideal. I recently started a new job that is a better fit, better hours, etc. No, I haven't, I'm also not in shape and exercising would help as well. That said, I feel I haven't hit a "jackpot" with my submissions as far as consistently getting upvotes. It feels there may be certain individuals downvoting my work as a means of trolling.

I'm not in any financial situation to afford insurance or therapy for a while yet.


fox_whisper85 said:
Sadly, I can't say that about my most recent submission, I don't see that ever balancing out.

I posted something that had a worse score than that. I think it had -15 or -14 at its lowest. Five months later it's up to -1. So yeah. It's possible.

And yeah, that's another problem with using scores to block weird stuff- if the art is decent, the score will get corrected eventually. Unless someone goes through and mass vandalizes tags for fetishes, those are going to stay put.


regsmutt said:
I posted something that had a worse score than that. I think it had -15 or -14 at its lowest. Five months later it's up to -1. So yeah. It's possible.

And yeah, that's another problem with using scores to block weird stuff- if the art is decent, the score will get corrected eventually. Unless someone goes through and mass vandalizes tags for fetishes, those are going to stay put.

Well that, I should know better than not to post that type of character on here, much less in conjunction with those fetishes. If I'm going to post that here, I should stick to vanilla.

ccpd
Member
24 days ago

i don't like something, I'll downvote it, nothing much else to it. maybe there was a fetish or art style that bothered me, reasons vary. Would absolutely never go out of my way to downvote bomb though, that's being petty

i should probably get into the habit of checking if the drawing was uploaded by the artist themselves, maybe start saying what it is exactly I think is wrong in the most constructive way possible and bank on the chance that criticism is allowed, especially if it was some as innocuous and broad as fan art or wholesome R34

SnowWolf
Former Staff
24 days ago
black_fur blue_eyes blue_feathers blue_hair equine fan_character feathered_wings feathers female feral flying fur hair hi_res horn mammal multicolored_hair my_little_pony shilokh smile snowdrift snowflake solo star watermark white_feathers winged_unicorn wings

Rating: Safe
Score: 21
User: SnowWolf
Date: July 28, 2012

fox_whisper85 said:
Most of it was due to my job situation not being ideal. I recently started a new job that is a better fit, better hours, etc. No, I haven't, I'm also not in shape and exercising would help as well.

I'm glad you have a better job. Jobs can really drain you if they're not a good fit.

That said, I feel I haven't hit a "jackpot" with my submissions as far as consistently getting upvotes. It feels there may be certain individuals downvoting my work as a means of trolling.

Well, searching for fox_whisper85 order:score might give you hints on what people are more appreciative of. But your own enjoyment of creation's important too. order:score_asc will show you the least upvoted first. order:favcount will .. well, order it by number of favorites.

Sadly, I can't say that about my most recent submission, I don't see that ever balancing out.

It might! It might not. Who knows. But numbers aren't everything. Enjoy making your art and, remember: vanilla gets views. Fetish/kink gets devoted fans.


I think the best way to avoid something that isn't their taste is by using the minus (-) sign for every unwanted tag. It's also common in Google if someone wants to be search specific.


I try not to downvote things just because I don't like them, but I can't say I never do. Also I will sometimes post comments like this That said, I would never hate on an artist because I don't like his/her art. What an artist draws is his/her buisness and as long as it's not 'objectively bad' aka 1000_hours_in_ms_paint I won't pick at an artist for what he/she draws.
But e621 has a downvote feature, and if it's not to be used on art you don't personally like, then I don't know o_o


SnowWolf said:
I'm glad you have a better job. Jobs can really drain you if they're not a good fit.

Well, searching for fox_whisper85 order:score might give you hints on what people are more appreciative of. But your own enjoyment of creation's important too. order:score_asc will show you the least upvoted first. order:favcount will .. well, order it by number of favorites.

It might! It might not. Who knows. But numbers aren't everything. Enjoy making your art and, remember: vanilla gets views. Fetish/kink gets devoted fans.

Hmm, can I send you a PM to ask a more in-depth question? I wish to show you art that I want to submit here, but not quite yet.

SnowWolf
Former Staff
23 days ago
black_fur blue_eyes blue_feathers blue_hair equine fan_character feathered_wings feathers female feral flying fur hair hi_res horn mammal multicolored_hair my_little_pony shilokh smile snowdrift snowflake solo star watermark white_feathers winged_unicorn wings

Rating: Safe
Score: 21
User: SnowWolf
Date: July 28, 2012

fox_whisper85 said:
Hmm, can I send you a PM to ask a more in-depth question? I wish to show you art that I want to submit here, but not quite yet.

Anyone is always welcome to send me a PM if needed. :) I like being helpful.


SnowWolf said:
Anyone is always welcome to send me a PM if needed. :) I like being helpful.

I sent a PM, not sure if you had time to read it.

SnowWolf
Former Staff
23 days ago
black_fur blue_eyes blue_feathers blue_hair equine fan_character feathered_wings feathers female feral flying fur hair hi_res horn mammal multicolored_hair my_little_pony shilokh smile snowdrift snowflake solo star watermark white_feathers winged_unicorn wings

Rating: Safe
Score: 21
User: SnowWolf
Date: July 28, 2012

fox_whisper85 said:
I sent a PM, not sure if you had time to read it.

I did! I sent a reply :) I just read the forum first! :D


Downvoting is not rude.

Downvoting without comment is not rude.

Providing constructive feedback to an artist who may not even see it is not the responsibility of users here, nor is it required in order to use the voting system.

What I'm really hearing as I read these comments is that some people are just offended by downvotes.


CCoyote said:
Downvoting is not rude.

Downvoting without comment is not rude.

Downvoting based on content, not quality, is abuse of the voting system and is totally rude towards creators who feel unwelcome just because people fail at using blacklists.

Score: –49 (+73 –122)
Favorites: 107

Comment about misleading thumbnail: +75

Totally fair score, right?


KinkyGlutamate said:
Downvoting based on content, not quality, is abuse of the voting system and is totally rude towards creators who feel unwelcome just because people fail at using blacklists.

So instead of using the feature to say "OMG I find this fetish despicable D:" I should use it to say "hey, yeah you there, you SUCK at drawing. Yeah, just so you know that". I really don't see how that would make any artist feel better about downvotes. But then again what do I know, my horses look like cows from minecraft XD

Oh, and let me get this straight: you expect people to vote purely on art quality on what's mainly a porn site? Wether that's a good or bad idea I simply think it's unrealistic.


KinkyGlutamate said:
Downvoting based on content, not quality, is abuse of the voting system

[Citation needed]


NotMeNotYou said:
[Citation needed]

IIRC, abuse of the voting system would be going around and spamming negative or positive votes ad infinitum, right?


fox_whisper85 said:
IIRC, abuse of the voting system would be going around and spamming negative or positive votes ad infinitum, right?

It needs to be targeted and visible that it's done with malicious intend beyond "I dislike this piece."


NotMeNotYou said:
It needs to be targeted and visible that it's done with malicious intend beyond "I dislike this piece."

Gotcha, thanks for the clarification, just making sure.


NotMeNotYou said:
[Citation needed]

What is the purpose of having a voting system?

1. Providing users with more information about the quality than they can expect just from looking at thumbnails alone.
2. Searching for best pictures having some set of tags.
3. Feedback from users who are too lazy to write a meaningful comment.

Now, what does downvoting based on content achieve?

1. More information:

1.1. If you use the blacklist to avoid seeing stuff you don't like, it doesn't affect you.
1.2. If you like the content in question, it ruins your experience as you can no longer judge quality (you can only see upvote/downvote ratio through very user-unfriendly UI).
1.3. If you fail at using the blacklist, then downvotes will be useful.

2. Searching:

1.1. If you use the blacklist, it doesn't affect you.
1.2. If you like the content in question, it ruins your experience as you can no longer sort by quality (while upvoting is consistent, downvoting is not, so the scores become random).
1.3. If you fail at using the blacklist, then downvotes will be useful.

3. Feedback:

1.1. If you use the blacklist, it doesn't affect you.
1.2. If you produce the content in question, it ruins your experience as downvotes are disheartening even if you understand their source.
1.3. If you fail at using the blacklist, then downvotes is your way of telling the world about your failure.

Do you notice the pattern?

Users who don't have unpopular fetishes and use the blacklist, are not affected. Users who have unpopular fetishes, who view, post or create such art, suffer. Users who fail at using the blacklist, benefit.

If you support downvoting based on content, you morally support bad users who don't use the blacklist.

Obviously, not much can be done about this behavior by moderators, as there's no reliable way to read the thoughts of users. However, I don't understand why this behavior is considered fine.
______________________________________________

There're some technical measures that can improve the situation.

1. I'd totally love a way to more easily access exact upvotes and downvotes — through search operators, through UI, through API.

2. If a user consistently downvotes some tags, the system may detect this and suggest to blacklist tags. It's a complex solution with unclear benefits though, so I don't think it'll be implemented.

Munkelzahn
Privileged
22 days ago

KinkyGlutamate said:
2. If a user consistently downvotes some tags, the system may detect this and suggest to blacklist tags.

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/clippy


KinkyGlutamate said:

Please do continue telling us how to use our voting system, I haven't had quite my fill of your words in my mouth yet.

If you support downvoting based on content, you morally support bad users who don't use the blacklist.

thank you sir, may I have another?


EightyNine said:
Please do continue telling us how to use our voting system, I haven't had quite my fill of your words in my mouth yet.

I'm just saying what's good for other users, and how to improve experience of other visitors instead of clicking random buttons for random reasons with zero gain at best. You can still click random buttons for random reasons, obviously, it's fully within your rights.

SnowWolf
Former Staff
22 days ago
black_fur blue_eyes blue_feathers blue_hair equine fan_character feathered_wings feathers female feral flying fur hair hi_res horn mammal multicolored_hair my_little_pony shilokh smile snowdrift snowflake solo star watermark white_feathers winged_unicorn wings

Rating: Safe
Score: 21
User: SnowWolf
Date: July 28, 2012

KinkyGlutamate said:
1.2. If you like the content in question, it ruins your experience as you can no longer judge quality (you can only see upvote/downvote ratio through very user-unfriendly UI).
...
1.2. If you like the content in question, it ruins your experience as you can no longer sort by quality (while upvoting is consistent, downvoting is not, so the scores become random).

Okay, so... if I like the content of an image, I am utterly blinded by the quality of it and can no longer tell what I like or dislike.

I'm so glad to know that I have no personal agency and no ability to determine what I do or do not like.


SnowWolf said:
Okay, so... if I like the content of an image, I am utterly blinded by the quality of it and can no longer tell what I like or dislike.

I'm so glad to know that I have no personal agency and no ability to determine what I do or do not like.

I think what they're saying is that for downvoted subjects, it's difficult to use score as a quality/relevance filter. For unpopular subjects, ordering by score or filtering out low scores is likely to filter out art of good quality. Score also can't be used as accurately as a gauge for quality or possible trolling from thumbnails where it's difficult to tell.

There's grey area when it comes to subject matter and downvoting because of images made/posted with intent to piss people off. It's hard to really tag for this stuff so downvotes are the only way to really filter them. I guess that's really where the frustration comes from- downvotes based on content that CAN be easily blacklisted and people using votes as a substitute for the blacklist.

SnowWolf
Former Staff
22 days ago
black_fur blue_eyes blue_feathers blue_hair equine fan_character feathered_wings feathers female feral flying fur hair hi_res horn mammal multicolored_hair my_little_pony shilokh smile snowdrift snowflake solo star watermark white_feathers winged_unicorn wings

Rating: Safe
Score: 21
User: SnowWolf
Date: July 28, 2012

regsmutt said:
I think what they're saying is that for downvoted subjects, it's difficult to use score as a quality/relevance filter. For unpopular subjects, ordering by score or filtering out low scores is likely to filter out art of good quality. Score also can't be used as accurately as a gauge for quality or possible trolling from thumbnails where it's difficult to tell.

There's grey area when it comes to subject matter and downvoting because of images made/posted with intent to piss people off. It's hard to really tag for this stuff so downvotes are the only way to really filter them. I guess that's really where the frustration comes from- downvotes based on content that CAN be easily blacklisted and people using votes as a substitute for the blacklist.

(deletes grumpy post)

I'm grumpy, I'm old, and I think that people should be minimally polite and I just can't get my head around walking into someone's house and telling them that they used FAR too much sage in the stuffing, that little Bobby shouldn't use ketchup with his ham, and that we really should have made a cake from scratch rather than buying premade one from the store if we have any interest in serving dessert.


SnowWolf said:
I'm grumpy, I'm old, and I think that people should be minimally polite and I just can't get my head around walking into someone's house and telling them that they used FAR too much sage in the stuffing, that little Bobby shouldn't use ketchup with his ham, and that we really should have made a cake from scratch rather than buying premade one from the store if we have any interest in serving dessert.

Wrong analogy. e621 isn't exactly your personal house, there're other visitors who matter.

Imagine a party. A group of people go to a separate room to relax from the loud music and play cards. A content based downvoter would be a man who barges into that room, spills water on cards and, when asked to go out and enjoy the party the way he likes with people he likes, tells that he has the right to tell how to party correctly and that playing cards sucks, so keeps being annoying by telling cards in hands to opponents.