tags for hate speech and controversial opinions?

In category: General

came across this image a day or two ago:

2017 ambiguous_gender anthro big_head cel_shading cheek_tuft english_text equine featureless_crotch front_view fur green_background hair horn lol_comments looking_at_viewer mammal markings missing_sample mitten_hands nude open_mouth politics purple_fur purple_hair roarey_raccoon signature simple_background smile solo standing text tongue toony tuft unicorn white_background ♀ ♂

Rating: Safe
Score: 25
User: Tir
Date: August 11, 2017

naturally the janitors have approved it and the rule against blacklisting what you don't want to see is still in force. unfortunately there is nothing especially evident in the tags to blacklist - just a bunch of generic descriptors.

it would be nice to have a tag for controversial opinions, though the hate_speech and transphobia tags were removed. I suppose "lol_comments" could be considered an indirect one, though that tag is also used for humour and not drama, and to the point I don't even have comments enabled.

indeed, i'd rather not see what i would consider discriminatory work. a post implying that 15 million people - 0.2% of 7.5 billion (thank you Lance Armstrong) - have a fundamentally misguided existence does not sit well with me.


INB4 inevitable shitstorm about freedom of speech vs art vs opinions.


FoxFourOhFour said:
INB4 inevitable shitstorm about freedom of speech vs art vs opinions.

please understand i'm not suggesting a blanket ban on anything that would cause this theoretical shitstorm you bring up. while it is the artist's right to express an opinion, it doesn't mean that opinion has to be broadcast to anybody who doesn't want to listen to it, especially on a privately-owned website whose users are on here voluntarily and have been encouraged to make extensive use of the blacklist functionality.

i don't believe such a suggestion would go against current site policies, seeing as such opinions are within the image itself, therefore not violating tag-what-you-see. the trouble would be tagging what is actually hate speech, a definition of which could be looked up in your preferred dictionary.

BlueDingo
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4 days ago
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Rating: Safe
Score: 24
User: flux_capacitor
Date: March 02, 2013

1. Create a set.
B. Add whatever you think is hate speech to it.
III. Exclude it from searches. (-set:whatever)
Four. Add like-minded users as maintainers to the set.

A hate speech or controversial opinions tag would be way too subjective to apply, especially when the "hate speech" in question is simply a truthful statement you're not willing to face or a symbol you arbitrarily hate.


political_statement on the OP image would be pretty accurate; there isn't really any ambiguity about it in this case, and it is not biased language.
Of course I suspect such a tag would attract trolls.


savageorange said:
political_statement on the OP image would be pretty accurate; there isn't really any ambiguity about it in this case, and it is not biased language.
Of course I suspect such a tag would attract trolls.

i like BlueDingo's suggestion, though it would require a lot of upkeep, and it doesn't occur to a lot of users that you could blacklist sets, myself included.

i do like savageorange's though, for being the most centrist option anybody has thought of thus far.

BlueDingo
Privileged
4 days ago
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Rating: Safe
Score: 24
User: flux_capacitor
Date: March 02, 2013

fewrahuxo said:
i like BlueDingo's suggestion, though it would require a lot of upkeep, and it doesn't occur to a lot of users that you could blacklist sets, myself included.

Actually, you can't blacklist sets yet. I probably should make a feature request for that.

savageorange said:
Of course I suspect such a tag would attract trolls.

That's one of the benefits of a set: You can decide who toys with it.

Chaser
Janitor
4 days ago
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Rating: Safe
Score: 43
User: snö.katt
Date: November 04, 2014

It is not hate speech for the following reasons:

  • It isn't saying trans people are bad
  • It isn't saying to hate trans people
  • It is merely stating an opinion

If you want to blacklist it, add post:1300557
However, I do agree stuff like this(Not just this, it can be pro-trans content too) should probably be tagged with politics or political_statement.
I'll ask the poof of deciding(AKA: one of the admins who is online at the moment)

Genjar
Former Staff
3 days ago
2011 annoyed antennae arthropod biped black_markings blue_eyes clear_membrane clothed clothing crossed_arms cute duo feral front_view green_body human insect insect_wings lifting lol_comments male mammal markings moth nisimawari pellucid_hawk_moth portrait quadruped shirt shorts simple_background solo_focus spread_wings standing three-quarter_portrait three-quarter_view traditional_media_(artwork) watercolor_(artwork) white_background wings

Rating: Safe
Score: 239
User: Genjar
Date: May 29, 2013

I don't see how that counts as politics either. 'Politics' is the science of governing, whereas that's just an opinion.

BlueDingo
Privileged
3 days ago
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Rating: Safe
Score: 24
User: flux_capacitor
Date: March 02, 2013

Genjar said:
I don't see how that counts as politics either. 'Politics' is the science of governing, whereas that's just an opinion.

Apparently, how people's brains work is politics now.

Granberia
Contributor
3 days ago
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Rating: Safe
Score: 49
User: Granberia
Date: April 29, 2017

"It is merely stating an opinion" can be said about any other hate speech statement. Claim of the chechnya leader that gay people don't exist is homophobic. Claims in this shitty post are transphobic. Have your "freedom of speech" and post it here, but tag it correctly.

It's impossible to blacklist sets and suggestion to blacklist single posts means that we have a janitor that doesn't understand how the site works.

If you're not want to allow people to blacklist things they want to avoid don't act surprised later when they are going to show their opinion about the thing that they can't blacklist in the comments.

Ruku
Member
3 days ago
2017 3_fingers absurd_res alpha_channel ambiguous_form ambiguous_gender blue_scales breaking_the_fourth_wall character_name claws conjoined darou digital_media_(artwork) digital_painting_(artwork) exotic_pupils forked_tongue glowing green_eyes hand_on_frame head_tails headshot_portrait hi_res hydra icon long_neck merging monster multi_eye multi_face multi_head multi_mouth multi_pupil nightmare_fuel open_mouth picture_frame portal portrait saliva scales shaded sharp_teeth simple_background slit_pupils solo tan_scales teeth text theowlette third_eye tongue tongue_mouth tongue_sheath

Rating: Safe
Score: 6
User: Ruku
Date: April 06, 2017

Genjar said:
I don't see how that counts as politics either. 'Politics' is the science of governing, whereas that's just an opinion.

Its politics because its not a opinion, it a public message/statement writen to effect policy.

  • "YOU" stop abusing kids with lies.
  • "I" feel these are nothing but lies that are abusive to kids.

The correct Gender Unicorn

Titling is made to imply a feeling of being derived from undeniable fact to the reader, not a persons opinion.

I would go so far as categorizing this as propaganda
thou that does not address the op fully, only the example post...


Genjar said:
I don't see how that counts as politics either. 'Politics' is the science of governing, whereas that's just an opinion.

This image is clearly made as a take that -- or, given the most charitable interpretation, an attempt to shame people into behaving/not behaving a certain way.
The tone of the message is clear enough as to be unmistakable.

For another example, "ALL NEO-NAZIS SHOULD BE JAILED" is also both clearly an opinion and clearly a (fascist, ironically) political act.


fewrahuxo said:
a post implying that 150 million people - 0.02% of 7.5 billion - have a fundamentally misguided existence does not sit well with me.

0.02% of 7.5 billion is 1.5 million. You meant to say that 0.2% of 7.5 billion is 15 million.


As long as male, female, and transgender aren't political parties I can't see how this would fit either a propaganda or a political statement tag. If that same statement would have been made by a political figure or mascot I'd probably let it slide under political statement, but I'm unaware of any party using a unicorn as mascot.

This would be much easier to deal with if we had tags that couldn't be placed by member rank accounts.

Controversial_opinion would probably the best fitting blanket tag, but has quite a potential to be abused, even with tag locking in place.

Offensive_content wouldn't work by default because rape, snuff, cub porn, scat, and watersports content exist. Offensive_opinion might also work as a tag, but has the abuse potential as controversial_opinion.

Granberia
Contributor
3 days ago
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Rating: Safe
Score: 49
User: Granberia
Date: April 29, 2017

NotMeNotYou said:
As long as male, female, and transgender aren't political parties I can't see how this would fit either a propaganda or a political statement tag. If that same statement would have been made by a political figure or mascot I'd probably let it slide under political statement, but I'm unaware of any party using a unicorn as mascot.

Jews are also not a political party. Do you think that this isn't propaganda poster then?


NotMeNotYou said:
As long as male, female, and transgender aren't political parties I can't see how this would fit either a propaganda or a political statement tag. If that same statement would have been made by a political figure or mascot I'd probably let it slide under political statement, but I'm unaware of any party using a unicorn as mascot.

This would be much easier to deal with if we had tags that couldn't be placed by member rank accounts.

Controversial_opinion would probably the best fitting blanket tag, but has quite a potential to be abused, even with tag locking in place.

Offensive_content wouldn't work by default because rape, snuff, cub porn, scat, and watersports content exist. Offensive_opinion might also work as a tag, but has the abuse potential as controversial_opinion.

People are trying to call it political becausw us existing at all has become "gender politics" to the right and alt right.

Because as long as were a "political idea" they can pretend we dont have rights as human beings and dont deserve basic respect or human decency.

Controversial oppinion works but theres a big difference between a controversial oppinion and something explicitly designed to incite a fight between people. Which this is. People saw it and the very first comment is how its going to cause drama.

I suggest the best tag to use is "drama_bait" or "flame_bait" because thats what it is. And we need to call this shit what it is. An explicit attenmpt to stir up trouble and create animosity towards a community that already faces ridiculous amounts of bullshit.

I also suggest blocking roarey as an [email protected] because hes literally stated in the past he gets off on drama and intentionally does this to get his jollies. If you wanna avoid political bull then block his tag.


fewrahuxo said:
it would be nice to have a tag for controversial opinions, though the hate_speech and transphobia tags were removed.

There is no such thing. It's the readers choice to be offended, whether they know that or not.

Making a tag would just let everyone turn it into a shitstorm. Everything can be offensive, sorry about that.

I'd say best course would be to make it a set, as someone already said.


Granberia said:
Jews are also not a political party. Do you think that this isn't propaganda poster then?

Obvious straw men argument; poorly chosen example. That is a poster designed and spread by a political party to push their political agenda of the Third Reich, so Hitler could further secure total power of the government and help the genocide against Jews and the other "impure" minorities.
Of course if a political party themselves, or a representative of a political party, says something then it becomes a political statement. But if some random drunk in a bar hurls the same statement it doesn't mean it's either politically motivated or a political statement.

My entire point is that people can be sexist, homophobic, transphobic, or any other kind of asshole to other people without being politically motivated. Of course it can be politically motivated, but it doesn't have to be.

Demesejha said:
People are trying to call it political becausw us existing at all has become "gender politics" to the right and alt right.

Because as long as were a "political idea" they can pretend we dont have rights as human beings and dont deserve basic respect or human decency.

Controversial oppinion works but theres a big difference between a controversial oppinion and something explicitly designed to incite a fight between people. Which this is. People saw it and the very first comment is how its going to cause drama.

I suggest the best tag to use is "drama_bait" or "flame_bait" because thats what it is. And we need to call this shit what it is. An explicit attenmpt to stir up trouble and create animosity towards a community that already faces ridiculous amounts of bullshit.

I also suggest blocking roarey as an [email protected] because hes literally stated in the past he gets off on drama and intentionally does this to get his jollies. If you wanna avoid political bull then block his tag.

Drama_bait sounds like a good candidate, there's very little spiel for misinterpretation.

I am aware that the (alt) right has it written on their agenda, but my point is that it's not certain that this particular image has been "inspired" by them. Which is why I would like a more neutral term for general drama generators.


WaffleDragon said:
Making a tag would just let everyone turn it into a shitstorm. Everything can be offensive, sorry about that.

you know, we already have rowdy comment sections without a specific tag existing.

it's true any sufficiently reactionary individual may be offended by anything, but going in a public forum, for instance, and saying "transgender folks are mentally deranged" is a bit more offensive than expressing a preference for Pepsi over Coca-Cola.

i do like the drama_bait tag, fitting the mold of the other cheeky meta-tags floating around, like "the_truth". i don't think the unicorn image should be tagged with the_truth (as it is now) because it doesn't fit a shade of reality as described in the tag description, but i'm not so bold as to remove it.


I also think the dramabait tag is a good idea.


There is already a tag for that. It is called lol_comments.


The correct gender unicorn. Opinion
There are 2 (biological) genders. Fact
99.8 of all people identify as the gender they were assigned at birth. Fact
Stop abusing kids with lies. Opinion. I would say stop trying to indoctrinate children. opinion

First off, this is the interweb don't ever take the bait and never feed the trolls. Secondly, Idk how people could be so close minded that if they hear an opinion that is considered unorthodox to their ideology, they start condemning people for wrongthink. What gives these people the moral authority to thoughtpolice everyone.

Ledian
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Rating: Safe
Score: 5
User: Ledian
Date: February 28, 2017

Beanjam said:
There is already a tag for that. It is called lol_comments.

no? lol comments also applies on images where people are memeing and generally having fun. for example
post #1288602


ThoughtCrime said:
There are 2 (biological) genders. Fact

you're confusing "gender" with "sex", which itself is incorrect because intersex people exist.

in addition, assuming that there are only two genders ignores multiple cultures where there are advanced concepts of gender that don't fall into a binary. these include terms such as "two-spirit", "hijira", and "kathoey", for aboriginal, South Asian, and Thai cultures respectively.

Clawdragons
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3 days ago

NotMeNotYou said:
Of course if a political party themselves, or a representative of a political party, says something then it becomes a political statement. But if some random drunk in a bar hurls the same statement it doesn't mean it's either politically motivated or a political statement.

I think it is worth considering that in the event that a political party has made something a significant political issue as part of their campaigning, then when a drunk down at the bar repeats that issue it can be considered to be a political statement - the issue has been politicized, in essence. Even if it was not directly inspired by the group who is focusing on that issue, people as a whole understand the political context behind the statement all the same.

That said, I agree "political statement" and other such possibilities are not ideal.

Drama_bait sounds like a good candidate, there's very little spiel for misinterpretation.

I think this is the best suggestion so far. I can think of a few other images that it would apply to as well (such as 69-11, for instance).

Beanjam said:
There is already a tag for that. It is called lol_comments.

As has been mentioned, lol_comments is supposed to be for funny comments, not for drama. And on that note, I'd like to once again bring up an idea I mentioned before and that I think has some validity:

drama_comments

If for whatever reason there's a lot of drama going on in the comments of an image (whether that be because the image is drama bait or for other reasons), drama_comments would apply. I think it would be a useful tag.


fewrahuxo said:
you're confusing "gender" with "sex", which itself is incorrect because intersex people exist.

in addition, assuming that there are only two genders ignores multiple cultures where there are advanced concepts of gender that don't fall into a binary. these include terms such as "two-spirit", "hijira", and "kathoey", for aboriginal, South Asian, and Thai cultures respectively.

I mean the dude has a literal nazifur as his icon you think he's gonna pay attention to anything outside of white americentrism?

Either way the cartoon isn't fact, its not even oppinion. Its intentional bait from a drama addicted guy obsessed with causing problems to get his jollies. It's bait. plain an simple.


Demesejha said:
I mean the dude has a literal nazifur as his icon you think he's gonna pay attention to anything outside of white americentrism?

Either way the cartoon isn't fact, its not even oppinion. Its intentional bait from a drama addicted guy obsessed with causing problems to get his jollies. It's bait. plain an simple.

sorry, i knew he was a bad troll, but i have avatars disabled. i'm surprised he didn't get a record for his abusive tag edit reasons.

to get the ball rolling on this drama_bait tag, it would help to identify some images which would be applicable to it.

Ruku
Member
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User: Ruku
Date: April 06, 2017

NotMeNotYou said:
As long as male, female, and transgender aren't political parties I can't see how this would fit either a propaganda or a political statement tag. If that same statement would have been made by a political figure or mascot I'd probably let it slide under political statement, but I'm unaware of any party using a unicorn as mascot.

parties are not a necessity for politics, there were politics in modern America(1700-now) decades before any parties have existed...

This would be much easier to deal with if we had tags that couldn't be placed by member rank accounts.

I would suggest finding a better alternative then curbing yet more public control over tags. At this rate you will be heading for defeating the propose of the site with more and more power grabs. If you want to go this route then you can just as well abolish membership all together.

Controversial_opinion would probably the best fitting blanket tag, but has quite a potential to be abused, even with tag locking in place.

controversial opinion is subjective, whats controversial in one region or nation will not be so in another. A almost completely nude women for example on a beach is normal in most of the western world but would be highly controversial in deeply religious countries like Saudi Arabia or Brunei.

drama_bait

I believe this would have the same problem as controversial opinions in not being the same everywhere or to everyone.

NotMeNotYou said:
Obvious straw men argument; poorly chosen example. That is a poster designed and spread by a political party to push their political agenda of the Third Reich, so Hitler could further secure total power of the government and help the genocide against Jews and the other "impure" minorities.

So the only difference between the OP image and this is that "KNOW" it was in use by a real life government in some form.

Of course if a political party themselves, or a representative of a political party, says something then it becomes a political statement. But if some random drunk in a bar hurls the same statement it doesn't mean it's either politically motivated or a political statement.

As noted before parties are not necessary for something to be political, there are quite fuw countries that only have a single party and no party at all non the less they obviously still have politics, most city administrative level positions in the US are non-partician non the less they can and do get political.

My entire point is that people can be sexist, homophobic, transphobic, or any other kind of asshole to other people without being politically motivated. Of course it can be politically motivated, but it doesn't have to be.

No one said the subject is always political, Only that the OP image is written as a political message, not someones opinion.

And to be certain of motive beyond how it is written and presented would be KNOWING not SEEING, ergo TWYK

Beanjam said:
There is already a tag for that. It is called lol_comments.

Thats for messages in a posts comment section, not text on the post itself.


Ruku said:
*wall of text*

you know, this thread wasn't meant to be a soapbox.


Ruku said:
parties are not a necessity for politics, there were politics in modern America(1700-now) decades before any parties have existed...

Political parties as in any group of people following a specific political ideology, or trying to establish their own ideology on how any given piece of land or group of people should be ruled.
Under different terms those have existed as long as humanity has, in every single nation or tribe. I'm unsure where you got the idea that this entire concept of political parties is a) limited to the US, b) limited to a federal level, c) something "new".

Ruku said:
So the only difference between the OP image and this is that "KNOW" it was in use by a real life government in some form. As noted before parties are not necessary for something to be political, there are quite fuw countries that only have a single party and no party at all non the less they obviously still have politics, most city administrative level positions in the US are non-partician non the less they can and do get political.

You completely and utterly missed the point of that entire paragraph.

Ruku said:
No one said the subject is always political, Only that the OP image is written as a political message, not someones opinion.

And to be certain of motive beyond how it is written and presented would be KNOWING not SEEING, ergo TWYK

Second verse same as the first. I said that political_statement would not be a good tag explicitly because we have no way of knowing - from inside the image - that it's politically motivated.

Clawdragons said:
I think it is worth considering that in the event that a political party has made something a significant political issue as part of their campaigning, then when a drunk down at the bar repeats that issue it can be considered to be a political statement - the issue has been politicized, in essence. Even if it was not directly inspired by the group who is focusing on that issue, people as a whole understand the political context behind the statement all the same.

That said, I agree "political statement" and other such possibilities are not ideal.

I see the merit in your argument but I still stand by my argumentation. Political issues and statements come from somewhere: the opinions of people. The point where a personal opinion switches over to becoming a political one is a rather large gray zone, but I definitely wouldn't say any opinion uttered that somehow, somewhere matches those of a political party is automatically politically motivated.

fewrahuxo said:
sorry, i knew he was a bad troll, but i have avatars disabled. i'm surprised he didn't get a record for his abusive tag edit reasons.

Fix'd.