Ambiguous Gender Tag Question

In category: General

https://e926.net/post/show/1140639/2017-alpha_channel-anthro-big_butt-boots-butt-clot

I've noticed a tagging war on the linked post whereupon the character has been yo-yo'ing between male and female. Recently an administrator said in the comments to keep it female, though I'm curious as to why the ambiguous_gender tag isn't being utilized.

I'm not sure if this the ideal place to ask, but I figured it'd be good at least for illumination.


Samoyed said:
https://e926.net/post/show/1140639/2017-alpha_channel-anthro-big_butt-boots-butt-clot

I've noticed a tagging war on the linked post whereupon the character has been yo-yo'ing between male and female. Recently an administrator said in the comments to keep it female, though I'm curious as to why the ambiguous_gender tag isn't being utilized.

I'm not sure if this the ideal place to ask, but I figured it'd be good at least for illumination.

ambiguous gender is when you cannot determine the gender of a character. Your aforementioned yoyoing means that there are signs of a gender, but they clash with each other.

Ledian
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9 months ago
ambiguous_gender animate_inanimate claws clothed clothing commander_ledi commander_ledi_(character) duo ear_piercing eggplant eyewear flora_fauna food fruit fully_clothed glasses guild_wars hair humanoid long_ears not_furry piercing plant purple_hair sparkle sylvari video_games wings yaranaika

Rating: Safe
Score: 9
User: Commander_Eggplant
Date: December 07, 2017

when character has very feminine body shape, feminine leaning face and no masculine traits, its not ambiguous. the tag "yo-yo'ing" happened because people kept trying to tag the character as male based on external knowledge.


That's where I'm curious. Features like breasts, large bulges, etc. are absent, everything is clothed, and I've seen the hip shape used on male characters as well. Unless one were to take the 'Ms. Pac-Man/Minnie Mouse' eyelashes = female approach of course, but I'm still a bit puzzled.

Yes, the character is male, but that isn't shown. It seems like trying to go back and forth on tagging a Bugs Bunny in drag.


If there is no evidence of genitals (including breasts), we tag by body type; clothing like that doesn't obscure the body; the hips are feminine, and it doesn't matter if it was also used for males.

Here is a gender chart to decipher their gender. I'm willing to assume that you, as well as most others, use a combination of TWYK and TWYS to assume given genders because it's how the character is, but that isn't how it works on site.

Otherwise, I'm siding with Muts and Ratte, they are both the best for consulting gender in anthros.


Siral_Exan said:
If there is no evidence of genitals (including breasts), we tag by body type; clothing like that doesn't obscure the body; the hips are feminine, and it doesn't matter if it was also used for males.

Here is a gender chart to decipher their gender. I'm willing to assume that you, as well as most others, use a combination of TWYK and TWYS to assume given genders because it's how the character is, but that isn't how it works on site.

Otherwise, I'm siding with Muts and Ratte, they are both the best for consulting gender in anthros.

Ahh, thank you; that chart was clarifying.


Since there is a character tag, isn't it ok to tag his real gender and tag crossdressing? If a character is well known enough the crossdressing tag always prevails, right? For example with Bugs.


Sorrowless said:
Since there is a character tag, isn't it ok to tag his real gender and tag crossdressing? If a character is well known enough the crossdressing tag always prevails, right? For example with Bugs.

No, because that's TWYK (Tag What You Know). That is heavily avoided on this site because there would not be consistent tagging. You can ask about crossgender, but I wouldn't because it's actually our rule that tags them as female, and not possibly artist intention.


Siral_Exan said:
Here is a gender chart to decipher their gender. I'm willing to assume that you, as well as most others, use a combination of TWYK and TWYS to assume given genders because it's how the character is, but that isn't how it works on site.

Is there an equivalent chart or rules for tagging non-anthros with various configurations of slit/cloaca (or other weirder things)?
The wiki gives some guidelines on various pages but in practice the tags are often all over the place, especially on older posts.

Is this a case of "Yeah it's a known issue with no practical solution, so fix it the best you can when you find one", or is there a more specific page I haven't found yet?


Ijerk said:
Is there an equivalent chart or rules for tagging non-anthros with various configurations of slit/cloaca (or other weirder things)?
The wiki gives some guidelines on various pages but in practice the tags are often all over the place, especially on older posts.

Is this a case of "Yeah it's a known issue with no practical solution, so fix it the best you can when you find one", or is there a more specific page I haven't found yet?

There is no chart (there really ought to be), but I know a "universal" cheat sheet: the males of most species are bigger and larger, whereas the females are thinner and smaller, across all features of their body. The big problem is the aforementioned TWYK, as several species use other means to determine their genders (like markings, colors, etc.) that don't translate well to TWYS because of artistic freedom.

It may not be a bad idea to make outlines for each genus' differences and either add them to the individual pages, add it to the gender chart's page, or create a new wiki page entirely.

Genjar
Former Staff
9 months ago
2011 annoyed antennae arthropod biped black_markings blue_eyes clear_membrane clothed clothing crossed_arms cute duo feral front_view green_body human insect insect_wings lifting lol_comments male mammal markings moth nisimawari pellucid_hawk_moth portrait quadruped shirt shorts simple_background solo_focus spread_wings standing three-quarter_portrait three-quarter_view traditional_media_(artwork) watercolor_(artwork) white_background wings

Rating: Safe
Score: 253
User: Genjar
Date: May 29, 2013

Siral_Exan said:
There is no chart (there really ought to be), but I know a "universal" cheat sheet: the males of most species are bigger and larger, whereas the females are thinner and smaller, across all features of their body.

Female reptiles and insects are generally larger than the males. And avians are usually of the same size.

Most non-mammalian ferals end up tagged as ambiguous, unless there's visible genitalia. Or slight anthropomorphism, such as feminine eyelashes.


Mutisija said:
when character has very feminine body shape, feminine leaning face and no masculine traits, its not ambiguous. the tag "yo-yo'ing" happened because people kept trying to tag the character as male based on external knowledge.

im sorry mutisija but i really dont see any evidence at all for what your stating other then eyelashes(which can be a part of crossdressing), there is nothing feminine or masculine about the face, and i dont see a feminine body, what i see is a case of hyper butt on this character on a otherwise ambiguous body

O16
Member
9 months ago
2016 :d <3 abomasnow alakazam amaura animate_inanimate antennae anthro arcanine avalugg badge bastiodon beak beartic biped black_body black_eyes black_fur black_horn black_nose black_scales black_sclera blue_body blue_claws blue_eyes blue_feathers blue_fur blue_pawpads blue_scales blue_sclera bovine brown_body brown_feathers brown_fur canine claws cloud cranidos crotch_tuft digitigrade dipstick_tail directional_arrow eeveelution electricity english_text excadrill eyes_closed fangs feathered_wings feathers feline feral fire floating floatzel flower fur fur_markings gem gengar gloves_(marking) gogoat gold_scales green_body green_feathers green_fur grey_body grin group hair half-closed_eyes hand_holding hawlucha haxorus heliolisk hi_res hidden_eyes hindpaw hooves horn ice insect_wings jellicent kingdra kneeling leaf leavanny lillipup long_tail looking_at_another looking_at_viewer looking_down lucario lunatone luxray magneton makuhita mammal markings meowstic milotic miltank mismagius monster multi_tail multicolored_body multicolored_feathers multicolored_fur multicolored_scales multicolored_tail musical_note neck_tuft nidoking nintendo no_sclera nosepass on_one_leg onix open_mouth orange_body orange_fur panpour pansage pansear pawpads paws pidgeotto piloswine pink_body pink_fur pink_nose pink_sclera plant pokéball pokémon pokémon_(species) poliwrath purple_body purple_fur purple_hair quadruped raichu red_body red_claws red_eyes red_feathers red_fur red_hooves red_nose red_sclera ribbons rodent rose roserade scales screw scyther sharp_teeth shell silver_body sitting slaking sloth smile socks_(marking) solrock sparkle spikes spiral standing star starmie steam steelix stripes sun swanna sylveon tail_tuft talons tan_body tan_feathers tan_fur tan_scales teal_eyes teeth text toe_claws tongue torkoal tuft tusks two_tone_body two_tone_fur tyrunt video_games vileplume vivillon watchog water weezing whirlipede white_body white_eyes white_feathers white_fur white_hair white_scales wide_eyed wings yellow_beak yellow_body yellow_eyes yellow_feathers yellow_fur yellow_sclera zebstrika かんな_2日目東m02a

Rating: Safe
Score: 50
User: Rad_Dudesman
Date: February 28, 2016

I know this may sound a silly question, but: should a post featuring one flora fauna creature that has hermaphrodite flowers be tagged with "herm"?

e.g. boots cactus clothing empty_eyes female flat_colors flora_fauna flower footwear green_skin gun gun_holster humanoid pants plant ranged_weapon scarf shirt simple_background solo standing tank_top unknown_artist weapon white_background white_eyes

Rating: Safe
Score: 3
User: Nuji
Date: November 09, 2016

Related:

... 2016 ambiguous_gender azuma_minatsu blush chibi cute detailed feral fur hindpaw lying mammal nintendo on_back paws pikachu pokémon pokémon_(species) rodent solo video_games wood_floor yellow_fur

Rating: Safe
Score: 60
User: Jugofthat
Date: November 04, 2016 technically is male (tail shape).


O16 said:
I know this may sound a silly question, but: should a post featuring one flora fauna creature that has hermaphrodite flowers be tagged with "herm"?

e.g. boots cactus clothing empty_eyes female flat_colors flora_fauna flower footwear green_skin gun gun_holster humanoid pants plant ranged_weapon scarf shirt simple_background solo standing tank_top unknown_artist weapon white_background white_eyes

Rating: Safe
Score: 3
User: Nuji
Date: November 09, 2016

Related:

... 2016 ambiguous_gender azuma_minatsu blush chibi cute detailed feral fur hindpaw lying mammal nintendo on_back paws pikachu pokémon pokémon_(species) rodent solo video_games wood_floor yellow_fur

Rating: Safe
Score: 60
User: Jugofthat
Date: November 04, 2016 technically is male (tail shape).

For the first, you only tag ( male )herm when both a penis and a pussy, or indicators of, are present in an image. For the second, that and the cleft tail for females is TWYK and thus is not tagged. The shape of the tail, the colors of the fur, even evolutionary trees are ignored if the species can be both genders. It's crossgender if the species is otherwise (for instance, an all female Pokemon gets crossgender if the image shows a male. It doesn't get an intersex tag, though).


I'd say the flower one is a maybe. Plant anatomy may not be known enough by people for it to go under twys.

I support gender differences in fictional creatures but I remember seeing that the admin gave that the twyk flag in the past.

BlueDingo
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9 months ago
2013 5_fingers abs anthro athletic canine claws collarbone cute dingo front_view fur gloves_(marking) half-length_portrait holding_arm imiak inner_ear_fluff looking_at_viewer male mammal markings navel nipples nude peachez pecs pink_eyes pink_fur pink_nose portrait pose shy solo tan_fur v-cut

Rating: Safe
Score: 28
User: flux_capacitor
Date: March 02, 2013

And then you've got yoshis with no visible genitalia and no masculine or feminine features constantly being tagged male. With1 or without canon information, they should be tagged ambiguous until something suggests otherwise.

1Yoshis are genderless and reproduce asexually.


BlueDingo said:
And then you've got yoshis with no visible genitalia and no masculine or feminine features constantly being tagged male. With1 or without canon information, they should be tagged ambiguous until something suggests otherwise.

1Yoshis are genderless and reproduces asexually.

That sounds like people assuming gender based on TWYK from source. Have you made tickets about that?


Is it still ambiguous if a gender label is explicitly used as a part of the species name?
16:9 2015 alien alien_(franchise) ambiguous_gender black_background black_skin claws hi_res not_furry plagueofgripes queen royalty sharp_teeth simple_background solo spiked_tail teeth xenomorph xenomorph_queen

Rating: Safe
Score: 13
User: JAKXXX3
Date: March 02, 2017


Ijerk said:
Is it still ambiguous if a gender label is explicitly used as a part of the species name?
16:9 2015 alien alien_(franchise) ambiguous_gender black_background black_skin claws hi_res not_furry plagueofgripes queen royalty sharp_teeth simple_background solo spiked_tail teeth xenomorph xenomorph_queen

Rating: Safe
Score: 13
User: JAKXXX3
Date: March 02, 2017

Yep. Only the character's appearance in the image is relevant; no mars/venus symbol, no text even if in the image, not the name, not how they dress... the list can continue.

I'd offer citations to an admin's statement for those, but it'd be far too long or a search because it is rarely referred to in simple terms.


Siral_Exan said:
no text even if in the image

Now this one seems wrong to me. It seems like text could easily be a deciding factor?


I think it's better to knowledge tag gender rather than ambiguous in cases like that. Gender is better than non imo. It even has the queen tag...


Clawdragons said:
Now this one seems wrong to me. It seems like text could easily be a deciding factor?

~♂ ~♀ ~model_sheet -anthro -ambiguous_gender rating:s

Yikes. If it is the rule, there's a lot of work to do.


Clawdragons said:
Now this one seems wrong to me. It seems like text could easily be a deciding factor?

I call it the "I don't want to see it" ruling, because the premise is: if you do not want to see the gender, then blacklist the gender tag. Emphasis on see, people can call it whatever they want but for searching/blacklisting purposes you either want to see (only) it, or blacklist (only) it; while you can see text, it doesn't influence how the character looks. Reading a female and seeing a female are, therefore, two separate things.

O16
Member
9 months ago
2016 :d <3 abomasnow alakazam amaura animate_inanimate antennae anthro arcanine avalugg badge bastiodon beak beartic biped black_body black_eyes black_fur black_horn black_nose black_scales black_sclera blue_body blue_claws blue_eyes blue_feathers blue_fur blue_pawpads blue_scales blue_sclera bovine brown_body brown_feathers brown_fur canine claws cloud cranidos crotch_tuft digitigrade dipstick_tail directional_arrow eeveelution electricity english_text excadrill eyes_closed fangs feathered_wings feathers feline feral fire floating floatzel flower fur fur_markings gem gengar gloves_(marking) gogoat gold_scales green_body green_feathers green_fur grey_body grin group hair half-closed_eyes hand_holding hawlucha haxorus heliolisk hi_res hidden_eyes hindpaw hooves horn ice insect_wings jellicent kingdra kneeling leaf leavanny lillipup long_tail looking_at_another looking_at_viewer looking_down lucario lunatone luxray magneton makuhita mammal markings meowstic milotic miltank mismagius monster multi_tail multicolored_body multicolored_feathers multicolored_fur multicolored_scales multicolored_tail musical_note neck_tuft nidoking nintendo no_sclera nosepass on_one_leg onix open_mouth orange_body orange_fur panpour pansage pansear pawpads paws pidgeotto piloswine pink_body pink_fur pink_nose pink_sclera plant pokéball pokémon pokémon_(species) poliwrath purple_body purple_fur purple_hair quadruped raichu red_body red_claws red_eyes red_feathers red_fur red_hooves red_nose red_sclera ribbons rodent rose roserade scales screw scyther sharp_teeth shell silver_body sitting slaking sloth smile socks_(marking) solrock sparkle spikes spiral standing star starmie steam steelix stripes sun swanna sylveon tail_tuft talons tan_body tan_feathers tan_fur tan_scales teal_eyes teeth text toe_claws tongue torkoal tuft tusks two_tone_body two_tone_fur tyrunt video_games vileplume vivillon watchog water weezing whirlipede white_body white_eyes white_feathers white_fur white_hair white_scales wide_eyed wings yellow_beak yellow_body yellow_eyes yellow_feathers yellow_fur yellow_sclera zebstrika かんな_2日目東m02a

Rating: Safe
Score: 50
User: Rad_Dudesman
Date: February 28, 2016

Siral_Exan said:
[…] For the second, that and the cleft tail for females is TWYK and thus is not tagged. The shape of the tail, the colors of the fur, even evolutionary trees are ignored if the species can be both genders. It's crossgender if the species is otherwise (for instance, an all female Pokemon gets crossgender if the image shows a male. It doesn't get an intersex tag, though).

Most sexual dimorphisms technically are TWYK.

e.g. 2016 abstract_background antlers black_nose black_sclera brown_fur cervine deer feral fur hi_res horn looking_at_viewer magic male mammal mandala salkitten solo watermark

Rating: Safe
Score: 24
User: TonyLemur
Date: February 10, 2016 2016 autumndeer cervine deer detailed_background female feral green_eyes hi_res hooves mammal night pink_nose snow snowing solo spots standing tree walking

Rating: Safe
Score: 7
User: bleatbleat
Date: December 06, 2016


O16 said:
Most sexual dimorphisms technically are TWYK.

e.g. 2016 abstract_background antlers black_nose black_sclera brown_fur cervine deer feral fur hi_res horn looking_at_viewer magic male mammal mandala salkitten solo watermark

Rating: Safe
Score: 24
User: TonyLemur
Date: February 10, 2016 2016 autumndeer cervine deer detailed_background female feral green_eyes hi_res hooves mammal night pink_nose snow snowing solo spots standing tree walking

Rating: Safe
Score: 7
User: bleatbleat
Date: December 06, 2016

Thank you for the word. For the life of me I couldn't remember it, so I went more specific.

BlueDingo
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9 months ago
2013 5_fingers abs anthro athletic canine claws collarbone cute dingo front_view fur gloves_(marking) half-length_portrait holding_arm imiak inner_ear_fluff looking_at_viewer male mammal markings navel nipples nude peachez pecs pink_eyes pink_fur pink_nose portrait pose shy solo tan_fur v-cut

Rating: Safe
Score: 28
User: flux_capacitor
Date: March 02, 2013

O16 said:
Most sexual dimorphisms technically are TWYK.

All names are TYWK as well.


BlueDingo said:
All names are TYWK as well.

We do make an exception for names, and species if not easily determined visually.


Siral_Exan said:
I call it the "I don't want to see it" ruling, because the premise is: if you do not want to see the gender, then blacklist the gender tag. Emphasis on see, people can call it whatever they want but for searching/blacklisting purposes you either want to see (only) it, or blacklist (only) it; while you can see text, it doesn't influence how the character looks. Reading a female and seeing a female are, therefore, two separate things.

I'm going to need an admin source on this.

It seems to me that if a character in, say, a comic is shown in such a way as they would usually be tagged as ambiguous, but the dialogue in said comic was using male pronouns or otherwise giving some evidence that the character was male, that would be good enough.

BlueDingo
Privileged
9 months ago
2013 5_fingers abs anthro athletic canine claws collarbone cute dingo front_view fur gloves_(marking) half-length_portrait holding_arm imiak inner_ear_fluff looking_at_viewer male mammal markings navel nipples nude peachez pecs pink_eyes pink_fur pink_nose portrait pose shy solo tan_fur v-cut

Rating: Safe
Score: 28
User: flux_capacitor
Date: March 02, 2013

Clawdragons said:
It seems to me that if a character in, say, a comic is shown in such a way as they would usually be tagged as ambiguous, but the dialogue in said comic was using male pronouns or otherwise giving some evidence that the character was male, that would be good enough.

Yoshis are almost always referred to with male pronouns in english media despite none of them actually being male. Pronouns are not a guarantee, especially when transgenders are involved.


Clawdragons said:
I'm going to need an admin source on this.

It seems to me that if a character in, say, a comic is shown in such a way as they would usually be tagged as ambiguous, but the dialogue in said comic was using male pronouns or otherwise giving some evidence that the character was male, that would be good enough.

Not an admin, but:

We tag what is seen, not said. The words can lie and, as Siral said, the "I do/don't want to see it" rule seems the enforced one.


Clawdragons said:
I'm going to need an admin source on this.

It seems to me that if a character in, say, a comic is shown in such a way as they would usually be tagged as ambiguous, but the dialogue in said comic was using male pronouns or otherwise giving some evidence that the character was male, that would be good enough.

When I asked Ratte to provide you a "source", they replied with this and, at request, translated it to "this is not a pipe". To quote: "Point being, dialogue/text doesn't matter."

They furthered by exclaiming the problem of if we changed all tagged dickgirls to herms just because the ref sheet says so, (and now, in my words) despite the site's difference between dickgirl and herm. Mind you, just like me they are not opposed to lore-based tagging, but as of now it isn't what we go by.

I can provide the intended screenshot if you don't believe me.