Genjar
Former Staff
4 months ago
2011 annoyed antennae arthropod biped black_markings blue_eyes clear_membrane clothed clothing crossed_arms cute duo feral front_view green_body human insect insect_wings lifting lol_comments male mammal markings moth nisimawari pellucid_hawk_moth portrait quadruped shirt shorts simple_background solo_focus spread_wings standing three-quarter_portrait three-quarter_view traditional_media_(artwork) watercolor_(artwork) white_background wings

Rating: Safe
Score: 275
User: Genjar
Date: May 29, 2013

SnowWolf said:
This isn't so much 'do we have a tag for this' so much as "what... on earth do I tag this?"

breasts clothed clothing female footwear gradient_background hair halter_top handstand humanoid mammal multi_limb not_furry pointy_ears red_hair ribbons shoes simple_background solo standing stringmouse unusual_form

Rating: Safe
Score: 2
User: SnowWolf
Date: December 23, 2017

Humanoid with multi_limb? The basic form is there, just with extra limbs.

Honestly, that's the kind of creature that I'd consider tagging as mutant. If mutant weren't invalidated.

SnowWolf
Former Staff
4 months ago
black_fur blue_eyes blue_feathers blue_hair equine fan_character feathered_wings feathers female feral flying fur hair hi_res horn mammal multicolored_hair my_little_pony shilokh smile snowdrift snowflake solo star watermark white_feathers winged_unicorn wings

Rating: Safe
Score: 23
User: SnowWolf
Date: July 28, 2012

abadbird said:
FYI, body_horror is a tag. Its wiki specifically describes horrific transformations, which would probably be a better name (horrific_transformation), but that's not how I think of it. I just think of particularly grotesque or bizarre bodies, transformation or no. I see its most recent tagging... do you remember the artist mot from way back? They're still active. Their stuff is almost exclusively unusual_form, corruption variant, but usually without featuring actual taggable (and blacklist-able) fetishes.

I thought about tagging body horror, but the whole wiki description focused grotesque and like, gory... aspects. I mean, This absolutly has some aspects of body horror, but it's... weirdly located limbs, and extra limbs, not... fields of flesh-holes, meat webbing or networks of tubing weaving in and out of something's body, etc.

My post's not... THAT.. different from Stith from Titan AE: 2013 alien anthro beak breasts brown_skin claws cleavage clothed clothing crouching don_bluth female gun hindpaw holding_object holding_weapon mantrin nitro paws ranged_weapon rubber rubber_suit scalie solo stith suit tight_clothing titan_a.e. weapon

Rating: Safe
Score: 33
User: Fur_in_the_dark
Date: November 21, 2013

That said... thanks for the mot link -- stuff i nthere is absolutly unusual_form

Genjar said:
Humanoid with multi_limb? The basic form is there, just with extra limbs.

Could possibly qualify as monstrous_humanoid, but that's subjective.

I'd say that monstrous shouldn't really apply. She's not scary looking. Just very... limber :D

Maybe she's a cat_humanoid with cat ears? XD (kidding)


I'm looking for a tag that is basically grateful sex or thank you sex.

BlueDingo
Privileged
4 months ago
2013 5_fingers abs anthro athletic canine claws collarbone cute dingo front_view fur gloves_(marking) half-length_portrait holding_arm imiak inner_ear_fluff looking_at_viewer male mammal markings navel nipples nude peachez pecs pink_eyes pink_fur pink_nose portrait pose shy solo tan_fur v-cut

Rating: Safe
Score: 35
User: flux_capacitor
Date: March 02, 2013

Lalala_Bob said:
I'm looking for a tag that is basically grateful sex or thank you sex.

I don't think we have one. We could create a gratitude tag and search gratitude sex for applicable images.

BlueDingo
Privileged
3 months ago
2013 5_fingers abs anthro athletic canine claws collarbone cute dingo front_view fur gloves_(marking) half-length_portrait holding_arm imiak inner_ear_fluff looking_at_viewer male mammal markings navel nipples nude peachez pecs pink_eyes pink_fur pink_nose portrait pose shy solo tan_fur v-cut

Rating: Safe
Score: 35
User: flux_capacitor
Date: March 02, 2013

The girly wiki states: "A male or ambiguous_gender character with a feminine personality, clothing, and sometimes body type." What if you want the feminine body type specifically? Many girly characters don't have that body type (or you can't tell) and get the tag because they wear makeup, crossdress and/or make suggestive poses, and wide_hips sometimes returns manly and/or muscular images.


Adamthewolf178 said:
Do we have a tag for posts that can be used as wallpapers or are meant to be used that way?

It wallpaper.

BlueDingo
Privileged
3 months ago
2013 5_fingers abs anthro athletic canine claws collarbone cute dingo front_view fur gloves_(marking) half-length_portrait holding_arm imiak inner_ear_fluff looking_at_viewer male mammal markings navel nipples nude peachez pecs pink_eyes pink_fur pink_nose portrait pose shy solo tan_fur v-cut

Rating: Safe
Score: 35
User: flux_capacitor
Date: March 02, 2013

Adamthewolf178 said:
Do we have a tag for posts that can be used as wallpapers or are meant to be used that way?

height:# and width:#. Replace # with desired dimensions.

Example: height:1080 width:1920

Genjar
Former Staff
3 months ago
2011 annoyed antennae arthropod biped black_markings blue_eyes clear_membrane clothed clothing crossed_arms cute duo feral front_view green_body human insect insect_wings lifting lol_comments male mammal markings moth nisimawari pellucid_hawk_moth portrait quadruped shirt shorts simple_background solo_focus spread_wings standing three-quarter_portrait three-quarter_view traditional_media_(artwork) watercolor_(artwork) white_background wings

Rating: Safe
Score: 275
User: Genjar
Date: May 29, 2013

BlueDingo said:
height:# and width:#. Replace # with desired dimensions.

Example: height:1080 width:1920

I was going to say that wallpaper is preferable since those are manually sorted, but looking at them... there's not a whole lot of difference between -text height:1080 width:1920 and wallpaper height:1080 width:1920.

Almost makes me question if we even need the wallpaper tag.


Bonus round! Is there a tag for wallpaper used on walls?

... 2015 5_fingers 5_toes anthro antlers beard bed bedroom bgn biped black_hair boxers_(clothing) brown_eyes brown_fur cervine clothed clothing detailed_background digital_media_(artwork) facial_hair feet fingerless_(marking) fur grey_horn hair horn humanoid_feet humanoid_hands inside john_(bgn) male mammal multicolored_fur on_bed picture_frame pillow plantigrade sigh signature sitting solo striped_bottomwear striped_clothing striped_underwear toeless_(marking) toes topless two_tone_fur underwear white_fur

Rating: Safe
Score: 12
User: Cash_Banooca
Date: December 04, 2017


abadbird said:
Bonus round! Is there a tag for wallpaper used on walls?

... 2015 5_fingers 5_toes anthro antlers beard bed bedroom bgn biped black_hair boxers_(clothing) brown_eyes brown_fur cervine clothed clothing detailed_background digital_media_(artwork) facial_hair feet fingerless_(marking) fur grey_horn hair horn humanoid_feet humanoid_hands inside john_(bgn) male mammal multicolored_fur on_bed picture_frame pillow plantigrade sigh signature sitting solo striped_bottomwear striped_clothing striped_underwear toeless_(marking) toes topless two_tone_fur underwear white_fur

Rating: Safe
Score: 12
User: Cash_Banooca
Date: December 04, 2017

Trick question.we don't have one except when talking about background type


Genjar said:
I was going to say that wallpaper is preferable since those are manually sorted, but looking at them... there's not a whole lot of difference between -text height:1080 width:1920 and wallpaper height:1080 width:1920.

Almost makes me question if we even need the wallpaper tag.

I kinda lean towards 'not needed'. Some things definitely look 'wallpaper-y' in their composition, meaning that it's a single character on a gradient/textured/color background either centered or to the side with a LOT of negative space. Stuff like this:
16:9 2016 anthro black_hair bovine breasts brian_mcpherson brown_hooves cattle cleavage clothed clothing cloven_hooves female glowing hair hi_res hooves horn jo_lynn magic magic_user mammal piercing wallpaper

Rating: Safe
Score: 9
User: 2DUK
Date: September 30, 2017 This kind of composition doesn't really have much use or make much sense outside wallpapers and covers.

I think people looking for 'wallpaper' are going to either be looking for specific dimensions or they're going to be looking for images with that kind of composition. Maybe a tag for that like 'majority_empty_space' could work.

SnowWolf
Former Staff
3 months ago
black_fur blue_eyes blue_feathers blue_hair equine fan_character feathered_wings feathers female feral flying fur hair hi_res horn mammal multicolored_hair my_little_pony shilokh smile snowdrift snowflake solo star watermark white_feathers winged_unicorn wings

Rating: Safe
Score: 23
User: SnowWolf
Date: July 28, 2012

regsmutt said:
I kinda lean towards 'not needed'. Some things definitely look 'wallpaper-y' in their composition, meaning that it's a single character on a gradient/textured/color background either centered or to the side with a LOT of negative space. Stuff like this:
16:9 2016 anthro black_hair bovine breasts brian_mcpherson brown_hooves cattle cleavage clothed clothing cloven_hooves female glowing hair hi_res hooves horn jo_lynn magic magic_user mammal piercing wallpaper

Rating: Safe
Score: 9
User: 2DUK
Date: September 30, 2017 This kind of composition doesn't really have much use or make much sense outside wallpapers and covers.

I think people looking for 'wallpaper' are going to either be looking for specific dimensions or they're going to be looking for images with that kind of composition. Maybe a tag for that like 'majority_empty_space' could work.

I'd keep wallpaper around. majority_empty_space will get tagged on other things that aren't appropriate, like brown_fur canine cloud dancing dog feral fire fur glowing grey_fur jewelry mammal moon mountain necklace night on_hind_legs orange_fur pherigo torch white_fur wolf

Rating: Safe
Score: 11
User: SnowWolf
Date: December 18, 2017
Deleted: takedown #6948: Artist requested removal black_fur feline feral fur lying mammal panther pherigo sleeping

Rating: Safe
Score: 8
User: SnowWolf
Date: December 18, 2017
Deleted: takedown #6948: Artist requested removal action_pose ambiguous_gender autumn canine creek dog feral fur grass leaves mammal orange_fur pherigo pose running splash tree water white_fur

Rating: Safe
Score: 13
User: SnowWolf
Date: December 18, 2017
Deleted: takedown #6948: Artist requested removal ambiguous_gender black_fur canine fur looking_at_viewer mammal mist pherigo scar wolf yellow_eyes

Rating: Safe
Score: 15
User: SnowWolf
Date: December 18, 2017
Deleted: takedown #6948: Artist requested removal

Wallpaper's pretty blunt and straightforward. The wiki already links to our common aspect ratio tags (though do those need to be updated? It's been about 3 years since the page was updated...) (also do we have a tag for phone resolutions? are those a thing?)


SnowWolf said:
I'd keep wallpaper around. majority_empty_space will get tagged on other things that aren't appropriate, like brown_fur canine cloud dancing dog feral fire fur glowing grey_fur jewelry mammal moon mountain necklace night on_hind_legs orange_fur pherigo torch white_fur wolf

Rating: Safe
Score: 11
User: SnowWolf
Date: December 18, 2017
Deleted: takedown #6948: Artist requested removal black_fur feline feral fur lying mammal panther pherigo sleeping

Rating: Safe
Score: 8
User: SnowWolf
Date: December 18, 2017
Deleted: takedown #6948: Artist requested removal action_pose ambiguous_gender autumn canine creek dog feral fur grass leaves mammal orange_fur pherigo pose running splash tree water white_fur

Rating: Safe
Score: 13
User: SnowWolf
Date: December 18, 2017
Deleted: takedown #6948: Artist requested removal ambiguous_gender black_fur canine fur looking_at_viewer mammal mist pherigo scar wolf yellow_eyes

Rating: Safe
Score: 15
User: SnowWolf
Date: December 18, 2017
Deleted: takedown #6948: Artist requested removal

Wallpaper's pretty blunt and straightforward. The wiki already links to our common aspect ratio tags (though do those need to be updated? It's been about 3 years since the page was updated...) (also do we have a tag for phone resolutions? are those a thing?)

A tag for lots of empty space doesn't have to be wallpaper exclusive! It's a very common compositional dealio. However using that tag+dimension tags should create a good search for a specific kind of image.

I don't think 'wallpaper' is too straightforward in practice. Once you get past the obvious images that really couldn't be anything else you get "images that are any of a list of specific dimensions+unknown criteria." It's hard to describe what makes some of them more suitable for wallpaper than a similar image in the same dimensions. Like... what makes post #601205 more suitable to be wallpaper than other simple-background duos? Just the dimensions?

Chances are in order to find suitable wallpapers people already have to search the specific dimensions plus whatever theme they're looking for. The aspect ratio tags are also more densely populated than the wallpaper tag is, so you have more to pick from. 16:9 -animated simple_background turns up twice as many results as wallpaper -animated simple_background.


How about a new tag for 'oral presentation'?

It's one of then things I really like and there are no specific tags for it. It's exactly what it says on the tin.

For example: https://e926.net/post/show/1408110

For pictures where the mouth is clearly open in a sexually suggestive manner.

As of now, the only tags you find for anything remotely close is 'open mouth' which is tagged on literally hundreds of thousands of images, and 'gaping mouth' which is mainly for vore mouth-shots.

SnowWolf
Former Staff
3 months ago
black_fur blue_eyes blue_feathers blue_hair equine fan_character feathered_wings feathers female feral flying fur hair hi_res horn mammal multicolored_hair my_little_pony shilokh smile snowdrift snowflake solo star watermark white_feathers winged_unicorn wings

Rating: Safe
Score: 23
User: SnowWolf
Date: July 28, 2012

regsmutt said:
A tag for lots of empty space doesn't have to be wallpaper exclusive! It's a very common compositional dealio. However using that tag+dimension tags should create a good search for a specific kind of image.

I don't think 'wallpaper' is too straightforward in practice. Once you get past the obvious images that really couldn't be anything else you get "images that are any of a list of specific dimensions+unknown criteria." It's hard to describe what makes some of them more suitable for wallpaper than a similar image in the same dimensions. Like... what makes post #601205 more suitable to be wallpaper than other simple-background duos? Just the dimensions?

Chances are in order to find suitable wallpapers people already have to search the specific dimensions plus whatever theme they're looking for. The aspect ratio tags are also more densely populated than the wallpaper tag is, so you have more to pick from. 16:9 -animated simple_background turns up twice as many results as wallpaper -animated simple_background.

I dunno. I'm not actually arguing one way or another here. Just... thinking outloud.

Wallpaper is kinda useful from the perspective that a human looked at it and said "this would make decent wallpaper"... the whole "60% of this picture is open air'/simple_background thing made more sense, from a wallpaper perspective, a decade or two ago. The only time I see desktops covered in an impenetrable wall of icons any more is when I look at some 60 year old's work computer. :P (seriously, clear type, more minimal icons, better functioning start menus, steam and other programs that 'hold shortcuts for you'.... blush built in desktop rotation programs...)

and the ratios--16:9 or whatever-- are helpful, of course, but I'm pretty sure a number of art programs offer up 'desktop resolutions' as default sizes, resulting in a lot of random art being at that size.

Wallpaper could technically act as a 'really big publicly maintained set'... but to be honest, it's probably not the best tag.

The biggest flaw with it is that it's under tagged. I dunno.

SnowWolf
Former Staff
3 months ago
black_fur blue_eyes blue_feathers blue_hair equine fan_character feathered_wings feathers female feral flying fur hair hi_res horn mammal multicolored_hair my_little_pony shilokh smile snowdrift snowflake solo star watermark white_feathers winged_unicorn wings

Rating: Safe
Score: 23
User: SnowWolf
Date: July 28, 2012

How about an unusual amount of suns or moons? Or other unearthly 'sky objects' Luke Skywalker's binary suns, or the moons here: ambiguous_gender armor black_scales bracers claws countryside crystal detailed_background dragon epic-starzz feral glowing grass hi_res horn lying membranous_wings moon moonlight night outside river rock scales scalie solo tree western_dragon wing_claws wings

Rating: Safe
Score: 5
User: SnowWolf
Date: December 26, 2017

SnowWolf
Former Staff
3 months ago
black_fur blue_eyes blue_feathers blue_hair equine fan_character feathered_wings feathers female feral flying fur hair hi_res horn mammal multicolored_hair my_little_pony shilokh smile snowdrift snowflake solo star watermark white_feathers winged_unicorn wings

Rating: Safe
Score: 23
User: SnowWolf
Date: July 28, 2012

Xianyu said:
How about a new tag for 'oral presentation'?

It's one of then things I really like and there are no specific tags for it. It's exactly what it says on the tin.

For example: https://e926.net/post/show/1408110

For pictures where the mouth is clearly open in a sexually suggestive manner.

As of now, the only tags you find for anything remotely close is 'open mouth' which is tagged on literally hundreds of thousands of images, and 'gaping mouth' which is mainly for vore mouth-shots.

Maybe something like inviting_mouth? suggestive_mouth? (I like inviting)

Genjar
Former Staff
3 months ago
2011 annoyed antennae arthropod biped black_markings blue_eyes clear_membrane clothed clothing crossed_arms cute duo feral front_view green_body human insect insect_wings lifting lol_comments male mammal markings moth nisimawari pellucid_hawk_moth portrait quadruped shirt shorts simple_background solo_focus spread_wings standing three-quarter_portrait three-quarter_view traditional_media_(artwork) watercolor_(artwork) white_background wings

Rating: Safe
Score: 275
User: Genjar
Date: May 29, 2013

Xianyu said:
How about a new tag for 'oral presentation'?

That's close to mouth_shot, but I dunno if that'd be a good fit. The content tends to be vore-heavy.

There's also the underused presenting_mouth, but it can't be used for that post. Because the 'presenting' group is for posts where the orifice is not already in use.


Xianyu said:
How about a new tag for 'oral presentation'?

It's one of then things I really like and there are no specific tags for it. It's exactly what it says on the tin.

For example: https://e926.net/post/show/1408110

For pictures where the mouth is clearly open in a sexually suggestive manner.

As of now, the only tags you find for anything remotely close is 'open mouth' which is tagged on literally hundreds of thousands of images, and 'gaping mouth' which is mainly for vore mouth-shots.

Yes, yes, yes, though for opposite reasons. 'Soon to be a blowjob' shots are annoying as hell when looking for not-necessarily-vore mouth shots. I like suggestive_mouth or presenting_mouth.

SnowWolf
Former Staff
3 months ago
black_fur blue_eyes blue_feathers blue_hair equine fan_character feathered_wings feathers female feral flying fur hair hi_res horn mammal multicolored_hair my_little_pony shilokh smile snowdrift snowflake solo star watermark white_feathers winged_unicorn wings

Rating: Safe
Score: 23
User: SnowWolf
Date: July 28, 2012

clearly we go leaping off into the subjective deep-end and use 'sexy_mouth' :D Presenting_mouth sounds pretty good and lines up with several other tags.

I dislike 'suggestive' because that sounds like it should be something like...


SnowWolf said:
How about an unusual amount of suns or moons? Or other unearthly 'sky objects' Luke Skywalker's binary suns, or the moons here: ambiguous_gender armor black_scales bracers claws countryside crystal detailed_background dragon epic-starzz feral glowing grass hi_res horn lying membranous_wings moon moonlight night outside river rock scales scalie solo tree western_dragon wing_claws wings

Rating: Safe
Score: 5
User: SnowWolf
Date: December 26, 2017

we have alien_planet but that probably isn't the best tag sense that has canontations of scifi when these environments can also appear in fantasy, it also only has 3 posts right now so. Unusual_world or unusual_sky would probably be better...

BlueDingo
Privileged
3 months ago
2013 5_fingers abs anthro athletic canine claws collarbone cute dingo front_view fur gloves_(marking) half-length_portrait holding_arm imiak inner_ear_fluff looking_at_viewer male mammal markings navel nipples nude peachez pecs pink_eyes pink_fur pink_nose portrait pose shy solo tan_fur v-cut

Rating: Safe
Score: 35
User: flux_capacitor
Date: March 02, 2013

Darou said:

we have alien_planet but that probably isn't the best tag sense that has canontations of scifi when these environments can also appear in fantasy, it also only has 3 posts right now so. Unusual_world or unusual_sky would probably be better...

What if we made a multiple_suns and multiple_moons tag?


Darou said:

we have alien_planet but that probably isn't the best tag sense that has canontations of scifi when these environments can also appear in fantasy, it also only has 3 posts right now so. Unusual_world or unusual_sky would probably be better...

This is going to be like, super ultra anal, but isn't any planet that's not Earth an alien planet, regardless of the genre it appears in? But yes,unusual_sky would probably be a better fit since it'd also apply to dreamscapes, alternate worlds/universes, and 'earth but someone's done something fucky to the moon' situations.


BlueDingo said:
What if we made a multiple_suns and multiple_moons tag?

and what if rings are involved or other constant forms found in the sky that are not manmade but also not identifiable as moons or suns/stars? right now its just for defining non-earth environments in general. if there are enough to get more specific then we can always then split it up into implicated tags...


Am i crazy? I uploaded an image and as I was tagging it I was looking at he wiki to help get the wording right. part of the image is a girl eating jam with a spoon. I did some digging, and apparently while the wiki has fork and chopsticks other utensil tags like spoon are blank, and there is no general tag for eating_utensil. I'm surprised the wiki is blank for those as I figured they'd be common enough. Should we have a general eating_utensil tag and have specific tags like fork and butter_knife implicate back to it?

SnowWolf
Former Staff
3 months ago
black_fur blue_eyes blue_feathers blue_hair equine fan_character feathered_wings feathers female feral flying fur hair hi_res horn mammal multicolored_hair my_little_pony shilokh smile snowdrift snowflake solo star watermark white_feathers winged_unicorn wings

Rating: Safe
Score: 23
User: SnowWolf
Date: July 28, 2012

Hmm.. I suspect there's a collection of tags to be had here.

I am really astonished that there isn't, like, an alien_landscape tag for all sorts of blue-glowy James Cameron stuff.

Multiple_suns is a very good tag-- as it's probably pretty clear if there are several suns. (I say probably because I have only traveled to one planet in this galaxy and it's pretty straightforward if something is sun or moon.)

Moons, though.. Time for my own super anal moment: A moon is a body that orbits another body, generally a much bigger one. (the moon is, as far as moons go, HUGE. Like, bigger than pluto. ) so when you've got, like, a giant planet floating peacefully up in the sky (like on Yavin IV or Endor)... the planet you're on is probably a moon. Orbiting another planet. but people will TOTALLY tag that as moon anyway.

Not really sure how to tag a visible planet off in the sky.

but maybe something like... Alien_sky and it could hit all of the multiple moons and suns and planets. Or something like that. Preferably something that discourages pictures where "everything is normal, just the sky is green" ;) Unearthly_skyscape, unearthly_sky... Hmmmm....

Genjar
Former Staff
3 months ago
2011 annoyed antennae arthropod biped black_markings blue_eyes clear_membrane clothed clothing crossed_arms cute duo feral front_view green_body human insect insect_wings lifting lol_comments male mammal markings moth nisimawari pellucid_hawk_moth portrait quadruped shirt shorts simple_background solo_focus spread_wings standing three-quarter_portrait three-quarter_view traditional_media_(artwork) watercolor_(artwork) white_background wings

Rating: Safe
Score: 275
User: Genjar
Date: May 29, 2013

single_cell said:
Should we have a general eating_utensil tag and have specific tags like fork and butter_knife implicate back to it?

We thought of adding some kind of holding_utensil tag back when the holding tags were reworked, but it didn't seem to garner much interest. I think I remember something about 'eating + (utensil tag)' working well enough if you want to search for those.

And it was difficult to come up with a good common tag name for those, most utensils have other uses (such as cooking) besides dining.


One i've looked for before but not yet managed to find: a tag for characters who are wearing shorts however the zipper is open and you are able to see a little lower than usual. This tag I guess may be associated to more than just shorts, but thats filterable :P

BlueDingo
Privileged
3 months ago
2013 5_fingers abs anthro athletic canine claws collarbone cute dingo front_view fur gloves_(marking) half-length_portrait holding_arm imiak inner_ear_fluff looking_at_viewer male mammal markings navel nipples nude peachez pecs pink_eyes pink_fur pink_nose portrait pose shy solo tan_fur v-cut

Rating: Safe
Score: 35
User: flux_capacitor
Date: March 02, 2013

Genjar said:
We thought of adding some kind of holding_utensil tag back when the holding tags were reworked, but it didn't seem to garner much interest. I think I remember something about 'eating + (utensil tag)' working well enough if you want to search for those.

And it was difficult to come up with a good common tag name for those, most utensils have other uses (such as cooking) besides dining.

holding_cutlery or holding_tableware. holding_cookware if cooking utensils need a tag.

'eating (utensil)' has a pretty good hit rate so we might not need the above tags.