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Genjar
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Rating: Safe
Score: 224
User: Genjar
Date: May 29, 2013

JAKXXX3 said:
The words Andromorph and Gynomorph in this thread were basically created for the purpose of being replacements, thus we can give them any definition we want.

Those are actually used in entomology and general biology all the time.
Gynomorphic is female appearance, male genitalia.
Andromorphic is male appearance, female genitalia.

Which is identical to our usage of dickgirl/cuntboy.
Though no, you won't get many google hits for those, because medical and biology forums tend to be of limited access.


Genjar said:
Those are actually used in entomology and general biology all the time.
Gynomorphic is female appearance, male genitalia.
Andromorphic is male appearance, female genitalia.

Though no, you won't get many google hits for those, because medical and biological forums tend to be of limited access.

Oh really? So they're actually synonymous with the earlier mabod/fembod suggestions we had earlier? That's convenient.

If so, I guess I'll change my earlier vote to +1 for andromorph/gynomorph.


If anything, that flies directly in the face of the apparent attempt at compassion with the terminology change. You look at a character who's male and has a vagina and say "you're a female with male characteristics." And they say "stop defining me by my genitals!" And you say "hey, at least I didn't call it a cunt."

This does not solve the problem. It inserts terms no casual user would ever think of, solves nothing, and makes everything weird.


notnobody said:
If anything, that flies directly in the face of the apparent attempt at compassion with the terminology change. You look at a character who's male and has a vagina and say "you're a female with male characteristics." And they say "stop defining me by my genitals!" And you say "hey, at least I didn't call it a cunt."

This does not solve the problem. It inserts terms no casual user would ever think of, solves nothing, and makes everything weird.

um for the most part "defining me by my genitals" is not the reason for this change but the fact that the presently use terms are proven to be slurs, have always been slurs, primarily seen as slurs to the world and were made to be slurs.

Other slurs and slang on this site have in the past been removed and replaced with more formal terms, it past time that one of the last remaining(these 2) are done away with as well when there are working alternatives

PS: Also Genjar, thank you.


notnobody said:
The only part I see agreement on, and I share the agreement, is that cuntboy and dickgirl are good to ditch in favor of something better.

That's not true, though. Plenty of people don't agree. They keep coming in here every now and again to tell you this; but they get told their opinion is irrelevant as "it's already been decided". They shrug, and go away again, resulting in a group of people closely following this forum topic which isn't representative of the community.

Let me make two predictions (as someone who actually did Latin):

  • "Andromorph" will be hopelessly confused with "androgynous".
  • The only way people will guess what "gynomorph" means is if they link it to "gynecologist"; and then, they'll most likely guess it means the wrong thing, since they're intimately involved with female genitalia.

If you think andromorph (or any other such term) is worth having, just make cuntboy imply it, rather than replace it - it's a superset, after all - and then whip up an "ignored tags" system to hide whatever the user wants in lists. That might actually be useful, because there are other things (e.g. bearded_lady) which those interested in andromorphism are likely to appreciate.

From a programming perspective, it's trivial to remove entries in one list from another list. And from a social standpoint, it improves the experience of one group of people without letting their opinions impact the experience of others.


Edit: Should've quoted - this was in response to Ruku.

If you think that's true, go back and look at how quickly penisgirl/vaginaboy and various other flavors went south when they were suggested.

And if you still don't believe it, go ask some actual trans people how they feel about it, or if you don't know any, then just find some videos of trans people doing interviews and look at their faces when the interviewer inevitably asks them what's in their pants.

I'm advocating for either just punting on the issue until we have a real solid solution, or focusing back more on the solutions that act more as descriptions and less as labels.

Intersex_penisballswhatever acts more as a property marker, where androgynomorph acts more as a finger pointed at a noun. Forget about the hollow claims that it's all about whether people consider the words dick and cunt generally offensive and think about what's really bothersome to someone who cares about this from that perspective.


GreenReaper said:
That's not true, though. Plenty of people don't agree. They keep coming in here every now and again to tell you this; but they get told their opinion is irrelevant

Oh no, believe me, I know this struggle. But nobody's been here to tell me anything. I didn't start posting in this thread until a few hours ago. I do think people are, not just in this thread by in culture lately in general, trying to do the equivalent of turning everyone into a criminal by making everything illegal. If you want to make everyone in the world a bigot, just make a constantly wildly moving target that, if you don't hit it, defines you as a hateful person. But all I meant before was, I saw a glimmer of a suggestion that could legitimately add some good precision to searches for some set of in-between parts that male/maleherm/herm/female don't cover. I don't agree with the notion that the terms people have been fapping to for years are abusive or hateful, but I'm all for a good formulaic approach to finding fap fodder more quickly.


notnobody said:
Edit: Should've quoted - this was in response to Ruku.

If you think that's true, go back and look at how quickly penisgirl/vaginaboy and various other flavors went south when they were suggested.

Those most likly because they denote a sence of inferiority, boy and girl as if they are all children, children usually arnt allowed to decide for themselves, they have to listen to there parent. Most suggestions made so far ether fail at avoiding ridiculously long tags like the */* sex pairing tag group or prone to mistags resulting from missing underscores which is why tags contain male or female dont work sence the mistaged posts here in particular would be especially hard to find other tags like vegentlemen didnt actually get any opposition but not much support ether personally not to iffy about that term but i can see why some people were rather meh to that...

And if you still don't believe it, go ask some actual trans people how they feel about it, or if you don't know any, then just find some videos of trans people doing interviews and look at their faces when the interviewer inevitably asks them what's in their pants.

You are aware that there are number of intersex/transgender people who have spoken out here in this thread thru out the 33 pages worth of thread and previous threads before this one that also included commentaries from transgendered people. Im aware nnb but what i was saying was that the primary reason for the thread and the primary reason why admins ruled that there should be a change is because the terms subject to change are slurs, not because of being defined by genitalia but being defined by slurs on this site.
Let me point out that some users who identify as trans including the op themselves have at one point or another thru out this thread given their support to tag suggestions like female_bodied_with_pussy or male_with pussy.

I'm advocating for either just punting on the issue until we have a real solid solution, or focusing back more on the solutions that act more as descriptions and less as labels.

Intersex_penisballswhatever acts more as a property marker, where androgynomorph acts more as a finger pointed at a noun. Forget about the hollow claims that it's all about whether people consider the words dick and cunt generally offensive and think about what's really bothersome to someone who cares about this from that perspective.

that they are offinicive is established fact that you can look up in any dictionary and ask any person on the street, not some empty excuse from a minority. Might i point out that just about all tags that had dick or cunt in it in the early days of e621 including cunt and dick it self have all been removed and replaced with formal terms at this point. These 2 tags subject to change are pretty much the last tags left with these outdated components.

As to you Greenreaper we know there was disagreement to changing the tags in anyway, no ones denying or ignoring that, but why did people disagree would be the problem, i pretty much read all pages to this thread and the grater majority of disagreement was on:
a system that works but will be harmed in functionality if the terms are changed; staff should not bend to the demands of SJW, slippery rope(today its cuntboy, next day it may be penis that people suddenly see as a slur), why change a working system.
Just about half the pages worth to this thread are really about nothing but these same excuses rehashed over and over again in slightly different forms. Non of them have truth to them, merrit or even apply to what actually being effected in this change so of cource the will not be given much attention to.
The only true thing that would be representative would be a site wide announcement that can be replied to or site wide vote. A forum and its threads will never be representative of the community.


The admins didn't rule anything. They said they were open to a change if there was a good one to be had. Anyway, I can't accept the assertion that dick and cunt are slurs. If you say "My cock is itchy; How about your cunt? Anglo Saxon words are fun," and your cunt-owning friend says "Yup, my pussy is also itchy just like your dick. Norse and English words are also great," then you haven't slurred each other. And you haven't slurred a strongman competitor if you say they'd pull more in sumo deadlift than in standard because they're a glute-man unlike the quad-man to their left. People like nice simple terms, and shoving the relevant bits together into portmanteaus produces them. If the gripe here were girl/boy for age implications, then everyone would've immediately been happy with a suggestion of changing it to dickwoman and cuntman. Or pussyman and cockwoman. But they're not. When these things come up, they're an emotional response to any implication that a person's self image isn't valid - in this case, that if you're a woman but have a dick for instance, that you're some how different from a woman.

But don't discount people for having an emotional response to being told they're awful and abusive at their core either. Remember, nobody was living under a rock before these threads got started. The most vitriolic people contributing the least to the conversation could just be so fed up and fatigued from being slammed everywhere as a bigot or a transphobe that they feel like the only thing they have it in them to do anymore is vent some steam. Fact is, you really can't please everybody, so no matter how genuinely you want to be compassionate, in this atmosphere, you'll always run into another person your last effort wasn't good enough for, and they'll hate you just as hard and call you just as much of a bigot as the last group.

So to my ongoing point - if we're after a change, it should be for clarity's and usability's sake, not for feelings... Because those are insufficiently standard and predictable to solve any problems.


notnobody said:
The admins didn't rule anything. They said they were open to a change if there was a good one to be had. Anyway, I can't accept the assertion that dick and cunt are slurs. If you say "My cock is itchy; How about your cunt? Anglo Saxon words are fun," and your cunt-owning friend says "Yup, my pussy is also itchy just like your dick. Norse and English words are also great," then you haven't slurred each other. And you haven't slurred a strongman competitor if you say they'd pull more in sumo deadlift than in standard because they're a glute-man unlike the quad-man to their left. People like nice simple terms, and shoving the relevant bits together into portmanteaus produces them. If the gripe here were girl/boy for age implications, then everyone would've immediately been happy with a suggestion of changing it to dickwoman and cuntman. Or pussyman and cockwoman. But they're not. When these things come up, they're an emotional response to any implication that a person's self image isn't valid - in this case, that if you're a woman but have a dick for instance, that you're some how different from a woman.

But don't discount people for having an emotional response to being told they're awful and abusive at their core either. Remember, nobody was living under a rock before these threads got started. The most vitriolic people contributing the least to the conversation could just be so fed up and fatigued from being slammed everywhere as a bigot or a transphobe that they feel like the only thing they have it in them to do anymore is vent some steam. Fact is, you really can't please everybody, so no matter how genuinely you want to be compassionate, in this atmosphere, you'll always run into another person your last effort wasn't good enough for, and they'll hate you just as hard and call you just as much of a bigot as the last group.

So to my ongoing point - if we're after a change, it should be for clarity's and usability's sake, not for feelings... Because those are insufficiently standard and predictable to solve any problems.

Please actually read responses to your comments in full notnobody.
The Admins did in fact rule that there shall be a change when a well supported workable alternative is found, ratte has to keep coming into this thread to remind you all that there was already a ruling on the change and it is no longer up to dabate. And nnb please dont over simplify and generalize a issue that has long been one of the bigest on e621, there is obviously more to this then just age implication nnb but it is one of many problems with existing terms like dickgirl and cuntboy especially on a tagging system(twys) that is supposed to be objective and strictly visually descriptive(not all intersex look like children or act like children).
And your monologue on using cunt and dick honestly seems like grasping at straws and in some parts does not make sence at all. i never said cunt or dick was a slur but they are vulgar, cunt in particular is regarded to the same level as terms such as nigger, and could well get you in trouble.Go ahead refer to everyone irl from now on as dicks and cunts, see where that gets you.

And Nnb do not bring politics into this,

no one here is being called a bigot, this is about facts, if they are discounted then its because their reasoning is not based in facts.
And true you cant please everyone but doing nothing is worse to everyone. This is also not there to please anyone, it is there to remove 2 terms that were nothing but slurs when working alternatives exist.

A term that is usable and serious at not carrying any disparaging propose is what the continued discussion is about.feelings play no major role in this, what is documented fact and acceptability in public sphere is.


Ruku said:
...fact that the presently use terms are proven to be slurs, have always been slurs, primarily seen as slurs to the world and were made to be slurs...

Ruku said:
... i never said cunt or dick was a slur but they are vulgar...

Ruku said:
Those most likly because they denote a sence of inferiority, boy and girl as if they are all children, children usually arnt allowed to decide for themselves

Ruku said:
there is obviously more to this then just age implication

I think the one not reading the replies to my posts here is the one writing them. Don't tell me not to bring politics into this. It's the underpinning of the entire debate. I'm the only one trying to get the actual effort to focus away from it. And you misread Ratte's posts. They were trying to tell people to stop wasting effort bickering on whether to make a change and start focusing on trying to come up with something worthy of changing to. That doesn't mean it'll happen even in the absence of a good solution. I'm trying to advocate for a good solution.


notnobody said:
And you misread Ratte's posts. They were trying to tell people to stop wasting effort bickering on whether to make a change and start focusing on trying to come up with something worthy of changing to. That doesn't mean it'll happen even in the absence of a good solution. I'm trying to advocate for a good solution.

Look again. The ruling was made, and nobody claimed Ratte was the one to make it, just that she kept coming in to remind people.


Furrin_Gok said:
Look again. The ruling was made, and nobody claimed Ratte was the one to make it, just that she kept coming in to remind people.

I read that the same way - not a ruling but a forehead slap at meaningless resistance to change. And just a reminder, at that. You could swap in any tags and proposed changes and have that post be unchanged; We've had the same annoyance on a bunch of proposals. We still need a good destination to make it worthwhile. Anyway, I feel like I've blown my wad on the topic at least until some more concerned voices chime back in.


Shhh my sweet children, it has already been decided by an admin that the tags will change from cuntboy/dickgirl. Majority concluded that cunt-/dick- is offensive(especially of those whose characters are tagged as such). It isn't a sjw either, it is merely a naming issue of should have picked a better name to start with in the first place.
No sense of fighting about it, you can still tag it how you want even after it is changed (it'll automatically change for you), and if you have it blacklisted why with about it at all?
The discussion of the now is what to change it to and why.
I still place my vote for gynomorph/andromorph because it's easy to remember, makes sense(Latin words), and doesn't offend.


Could someone give a summary of the alternative name proposals that we're considering now? 33 pages is a lot to search through.


I don't think there is a good summary. I've gone through an assortment of pages and even the people who have tried to summarize other options have left a few things out. I'm so worn down I don't care to go hunting for them now though.

To add on to what I said earlier in the thread: Gynomorph and Andromorph sound like wide nets used to filter something that is very narrowly defined. The more I thought about them the less sure I was. Also, the fact that this debate has gone on for so long in terms of both time, words, and people shows that this issue is bigger than itself. I'm sure that must be obvious to our frequent fliers but it's something to chew on.

Genjar said:
Those are actually used in entomology and general biology all the time.
Gynomorphic is female appearance, male genitalia.
Andromorphic is male appearance, female genitalia.

Which is identical to our usage of dickgirl/cuntboy.
Though no, you won't get many google hits for those, because medical and biology forums tend to be of limited access.

I think this is key to reaching a solution sooner. No offense, Genjar, but I have heard people in this thread say that the scientific definition is different than what you claim it is. Either way someone should do some deeper digging than just Wikipedia. With that in mind I've done some research and... I've struggled pretty hard trying to read this stuff. I'm no expert in either field but I have more exposure to thick contracts full of lawyer-speak than I do the jargon scientists use to talk to each other!

I can't find any definitions of either words save for a citation of a second edition of a scientific dictionary of bug science lingo (which is a real book I won't buy). I have been trying to interpret how these words are used in a sentence despite knowing how unreliable that can be. Here are some excerpts and links I've gathered:

"Gynomorphic mandible morphology in the dobsonfly, Corydalus cornutus"

 
"Gynandromorphs are sexually abnormal individuals with some parts genotypically and phenotypically male and other parts female, including secondary sexual characteristics (Lincoln et al. 1998). Gynandromorphism has been commonly reported from various groups within the Class Insecta. In contrast to gynandromorphism, the term gynomorphism has been used to describe males that have a morphological resemblance to females but not necessarily having female sexual characters (Lincoln et al. 1998)."

(Lincoln et al. 1998) = "Lincoln R, Boxshall G, Clark P. 1998. A Dictionary of Ecology, Evolution and Systematics, 2nd edition. Cambridge University Press."

Source (full)

"Color change from male-mimic to gynomorphic: a new aspect of signaling sexual status in damselflies (Odonata, Zygoptera)"

 
Blue Andromorphs color changes or something. Ctrl+F "morph" and read around. 122 matches for "andromorph" and 69 matches for "gynomorph". I never found a good example when skimming.

Source (full)

"A dynamical model of sexual harassment in damselflies and its implications for female-limited polymorphism"

 
"Here, we quantitatively characterise two hypotheses, the learned-mate recognition hypothesis (LMR) and the male mimicry (MM) hypothesis. The LMR proposes that males learn more quickly to attack the more commonly encountered female morph in the population, so that rarer female phenotypes are harassed relatively less. By contrast, the MM proposes that when andromorphs are initially rare compared to males, then they are harassed less than gynomorphs, due to their morphological similarity to males."

Source (abstract)

This is a good example of why I prefer the full text instead of abstracts. The full thing has way more context than this snippet of a snippet.

I used Google Scholar's advanced search to find exact matches of the words. There's -morph, -morphic, and -morphism.


fourroll said:
...

The problem is that these terms are highly technical with little use outside of scientific literature, and even then, the definition can vary between fields of study. I would like to add, from my personal experience as a university student, that it is very common for scientific articles to restate the meaning of certain terms important to the article, in doing so, the authors redefine the words to suit the highly specific purpose of the article. If you really think that it would help, I could find more examples of gynomorph and andromorph in scientific literature, it would be easier for me to acquire these texts since my student account allows access to most online repositories of academic journals.


No matter what new tags we come up with, there will ALWAYS be problems with any of them, one way or another, none of them will be perfect, so i suggest we choose the BEST one, and i think gynomorph/andromorph are the best ones.

If we're gonna choose any version of gynomorph/andromorph, then i suggest we pick the shortest and simplest one: gynomorph/andromorph.


Getting awfully quiet in this thread. What's going on?


Serperior09876 said:
Getting awfully quiet in this thread. What's going on?

We're waiting to see if there are any more arguments for or against any of the suggested tags.


Serperior09876 said:
Getting awfully quiet in this thread. What's going on?

Well, there are two ways to explain it:

▼ the "screaming men"

We're waiting for someone to start screaming at "this" (replace with "tag", "topic", "user(s)", etc.) again. Then people'll start screaming at their loudest for a day, then they'll start to lower their tone over a week, and which then whimpers and dies out. The men shut up and quiet is heard, until one of them screams again. This goes on ad infinitum, until one of three things occur: there's nothing left to scream about; there is no one left to scream; or there is no reason left to scream.

And

▼ the "explanation"

We are waiting until someone voices their approval or disapproval on this topic, a tag name, or a person whom did... something, context sensitive. Once one person starts up, everyone begins on the topic, and it is renewed. After a day or two, the topic starts to simmer down, and that trend continues until there is no reason to continue. We, then, stay quiet until it starts again. Once there is: no tag that would solve the problem; no user who wants to solve the problem; or no problem unresolved (I.E. the solution), this continues.

Honestly, I find it good that we're quiet, it's one less topic to read amongst the sea of eye-catchers. Every thread wants to demand attention, and this one is just being quiet.


Siral_Exan said:
the "screaming men"

The men...

Any particular reason why you specified "men" instead of "humans" or "people"?


BlueDingo said:
Any particular reason why you specified "men" instead of "humans" or "people"?

"Grumpy old men"

Also phonetically pleasing.


Siral_Exan said:
Well, there are two ways to explain it:

▼ the "screaming men"

We're waiting for someone to start screaming at "this" (replace with "tag", "topic", "user(s)", etc.) again. Then people'll start screaming at their loudest for a day, then they'll start to lower their tone over a week, and which then whimpers and dies out. The men shut up and quiet is heard, until one of them screams again. This goes on ad infinitum, until one of three things occur: there's nothing left to scream about; there is no one left to scream; or there is no reason left to scream.

And

▼ the "explanation"

We are waiting until someone voices their approval or disapproval on this topic, a tag name, or a person whom did... something, context sensitive. Once one person starts up, everyone begins on the topic, and it is renewed. After a day or two, the topic starts to simmer down, and that trend continues until there is no reason to continue. We, then, stay quiet until it starts again. Once there is: no tag that would solve the problem; no user who wants to solve the problem; or no problem unresolved (I.E. the solution), this continues.

Honestly, I find it good that we're quiet, it's one less topic to read amongst the sea of eye-catchers. Every thread wants to demand attention, and this one is just being quiet.

I think we can get this issue solved a lot quicker if we don't just talk for a few days, then stop talking a few weeks, than then talk again...ETC, but i understand your point. We need more viewpoints on these tags. I'm just worried if we stop posting this thread will be lost in the threads a few pages back.

Also, be careful Siral Exan, their could be MRAs watching.


It does sometimes help to let tempers cool, but the sort of double edged sword is that with enough time, everybody sort of forgets all of the points that've already come up, and you wind up with the next bout of posts just being a rehashing of the older ones. We're probably not likely to be lucky enough to have anyone disinterested enough in the topic(s) to be willing to honestly distill and lay out a summary of everything up to date who's simultaneously interested enough to put in the effort to actually do it. But that probably would be the most productive thing. The majority of the actual useful points mostly get lost in a roiling sea of anger. If we could on these longer more contentious threads, and anyone wants to take the time, it would be helpful to just refresh every now and then with a to-date synopsis of the most basic points.


BlueDingo said:
Any particular reason why you specified "men" instead of "humans" or "people"?

Because it's "socially acceptable" to assume that if anyone is opposed to a change in any way, it's the men. If anyone is supportive of something that is deemed offensive by the "social majority", it's going to be the men. Heaven forbid "the men" be progressive, open minded, rational....

Serperior09876 said:
I think we can get this issue solved a lot quicker if we don't just talk for a few days, then stop talking a few weeks, than then talk again...ETC, but i understand your point. We need more viewpoints on these tags. I'm just worried if we stop posting this thread will be lost in the threads a few pages back.

Also, be careful Siral Exan, their could be MRAs watching.

Also, pardon my disassociation with social terminology...but what in the world is an MRA? Your wording makes it sound a bit like a condescending remark towards anyone disagreeing with/criticising Siral's comment. >_>

Anywho, more on topic. I feel a bit indifferent on gynomorph and andromorph, but I would think it looses too much intuition outside of academic settings. The average user likely wouldn't know they even relate to genitals/gender, I imagine. I myself am only able to inference based on "gynecologist" and "androgens", but as GreenReaper said about "androgynous" and "gynecologist"....

notnobody said:
It does sometimes help to let tempers cool, but the sort of double edged sword is that with enough time, everybody sort of forgets all of the points that've already come up, and you wind up with the next bout of posts just being a rehashing of the older ones. We're probably not likely to be lucky enough to have anyone disinterested enough in the topic(s) to be willing to honestly distill and lay out a summary of everything up to date who's simultaneously interested enough to put in the effort to actually do it. But that probably would be the most productive thing. The majority of the actual useful points mostly get lost in a roiling sea of anger. If we could on these longer more contentious threads, and anyone wants to take the time, it would be helpful to just refresh every now and then with a to-date synopsis of the most basic points.

Indeed, as I've said before I agree on an alternative being used if it's found suitable, but with how long this has dragged on and myself not being particularly "emotional" about all of it I've dropped in and out and forgotten what I've even voiced my input on before.


Guys, can we not right now? Can we just not? This isn't the place. It's not going to end well. It never ends well.


Clawdragons said:
Guys, can we not right now? Can we just not? This isn't the place. It's not going to end well. It never ends well.

Sorry.