+1 for andromorph/gynomorph.


Oh heck are we coming to an agreement? Awesome!

Ruku
Member
1 month ago

Clawdragons said:
Oh heck are we coming to an agreement? Awesome!

It would seem so, certainly closer then this thread has ever been before ironicly the suggestion we finally seem to be settling on was one of the first thrown out there might i add not even from this thread but other much older threads on the subject that have gone forgotten. so pretty much gone full circle on this now


Ruku said:
It would seem so, certainly closer then this thread has ever been before ironicly the suggestion we finally seem to be settling on was one of the first thrown out there might i add not even from this thread but other much older threads on the subject that have gone forgotten. so pretty much gone full circle on this now

I'm not surprised though. As I said, I felt like the opposition to the terms was that they were unfamiliar - people have had a chance to get familiar with them, so they can see the advantages now.


Ruku said:

-Having male or female in the tag name could lead to a lot of mistags ether thru people forgeting the underscore between the words or assuming that just because there is male or female in the tag they can also tag male or female desperately as well, youed be hard pressed in finding and correcting the former as both components have over 30k worth of posts.-

the male and female component in the tags name would have to be replaced with an alternative like masculine/feminine or andromorph/gynomorph

You have the same problem with other word groups, so that is no argument against "male_with_pussy". If you want to replace it with your mentioned words, it would be longer and can not be translated. Even others in the world must be able to translate that.

▼ German - Deutsch

Dasselbe Problem hast du auch bei anderen Wortgruppen, daher ist das kein Argument gegen "male_with_pussy". Wenn du es mit deinen erwähnten worten ersetzen willst, würde es noch länger werden und übersetzt kann es auch nicht werden. Auch andere auf der Welt müssen das übersetzen können.

Ruku said:
Also adding my support to some form of andromorph/gynomorph it is one of the fuw viable options suggested so far that wouldnt cause issue in the */* sex partners tags and has documented usage for a similar propose as ours in the real world. +1

Where is the gender focus that the admins want? Theoretically, the two are, therefore, out of the election because the focus is on gender. In addition, it can not be translated and no one knows the meaning of (andro, gyno). What does morph have to do with it?

▼ German - Deutsch

Wo bitte ist da der Geschlechter Fokus, den die Admins wollen? Theoretisch sind die beiden, daher aus der Wahl, da der Fokus auf dem Geschlecht liegt. Zudem kann es nicht übersetzt werden und keiner die Bedeutung von (andro, gyno) kennt. Zudem was hat das mit morph zu tun?

"demigirl/demiboy" + 0,5
"female_penis/male_vagina" +1
"female_with_penis/male_with_vagina" +1
"fbmg_intersex (fembod)/mbfg_intersex (mabod/mascbod)" -1
"andromorph/gynomorph" -1
"Masculine_with_vagina" and "Feminine_with_penis" -1
"Masculine_vagina"/"Feminine_penis" -1
◦vagentleman -1
phalady -1


Plusch, are you removing the negative votes from people who later changed their votes?


PlüschTiger said:
In addition, it can not be translated and no one knows the meaning of (andro, gyno). What does morph have to do with it?

Andromorph / Gynomorph are latin-based, and thus don't need to be translated.

Gyno means "female" - as can be seen in words like gynecology, and gynecomastia. Andro means "male". Both terms can be seen in a term like "Androgyny."

"Morph" means "form". Which I think makes sense as being related in this context.

Anyway, I don't think we can expect to hold out for 100% approval here, so, if possible, can we get an admin to weigh in here? It seems like we've had more of a consensus recently than at any other point... What exactly is the criteria for when we can consider actually trying some possibility out?


As long as there's a wiki page for each of them giving a definition for how the tag's used, along with appropriate aliases, I do think andromorph/gynomorph is likely to be the best option that's likely to be found. I would personally feel eeeh about trans* tags, since looking objectively at furry art a good chunk of the characters that would be tagged aren't trans (I realize this falls under TWYK; this is more of a respect thing - tagging non-trans, altersex characters as trans comes off as pretty disrespectful to actual trans* persons).


Furrin_Gok said:
Plusch, are you removing the negative votes from people who later changed their votes?

These are my ratings. I have already made a proposal how we can do this with voting. Take a picture on 621 and each comment gets a word pair (example: phalalady, vagentelman). There everyone can vote and if one changes his mind, that is also possible if I am not mistaken. The link to it simply comes in a new treat, where also all the word suggestions are to be seen and which have been sorted out by the admins.

▼ German - Deutsch

Das sind meine Bewertungen. Ich habe bereits vor Wochen ein Vorschlag gemacht, wie wir das mit dem Wählen machen können. Macht ein Bild auf 621 und jeder Kommentar bekommt ein Wortpaar (Beispiel: phalalady, vagentelman). Dort kann jeder Abstimmen und wenn einer seine Meinung ändert, ist das dort auch möglich, wenn ich mich nicht irre. Der Link dazu kommt einfach in ein Neuen Treat, wo auch sämtliche Wort Vorschläge zu sehen sind und die welche von den Admins aussortiert wurden.

Clawdragons said:
Andromorph / Gynomorph are latin-based, and thus don't need to be translated.

Gyno means "female" - as can be seen in words like gynecology, and gynecomastia. Andro means "male". Both terms can be seen in a term like "Androgyny."

"Morph" means "form". Which I think makes sense as being related in this context.

You should be clear that you want to replace cuntboy and dickgirl with the Latin meaning of male and female. Even if I can start with the words, most people do not know that.

▼ German - Deutsch

Dir sollte klar sein dass du cuntboy und dickgirl mit der Lateinischen Andeutung von male und female ersetzen willst. Selbst wenn ich mit den Worten was anfangen kann, die meisten Menschen kennen das nicht.

Clawdragons said:
Anyway, I don't think we can expect to hold out for 100% approval here, so, if possible, can we get an admin to weigh in here? It seems like we've had more of a consensus recently than at any other point... What exactly is the criteria for when we can consider actually trying some possibility out?

Good luck. I wrote here 4 weeks ago (page 25) that they should publish rules. An admin has answered exactly after me. Have you seen any rules? That was when we met the first time. It should also be said by the admins which words are not taken. The discussion about these words has then become superfluous.

I think we should not make the whole thing unnecessarily complicated. We will not be able to create new gender identifiers for intersexuals that will be adopted worldwide. The irony is that the porn genre is the only one that has clear distinctions, because Cuntboy, shemale and the other versions, for it do not even have states specific names, or only numbers.

▼ German - Deutsch

Viel Glück. Ich habe bereits vor 4 Wochen hier geschrieben (Seite 25) dass sie Regeln veröffentlichen sollen. Ein Admin hat genau nach mir geantwortet. Hast du irgendwelche Regeln gesehen? Das war glaube, als wir das erste mal aufeinander trafen. Es sollte auch von den Admins gesagt werden, welche Wörter nicht genommen werden. Die Diskussion über diese Wörter hat sich dann erübrigt.

Ich bin der Meinung wir sollten das ganze nicht unnötig kompliziert machen. Wir werden hier nicht neue Geschlechterbezeichnungen für Intersexuelle erschaffen können welche Weltweit übernommen werden. Die Ironie ist das das Porno Genre das einzige ist, welches klare Unterscheidungen hat, denn Cuntboy, shemale und die anderen Versionen, dafür haben nicht mal Staaten konkrete Bezeichnungen, bzw. nur Nummern.


PlüschTiger, I do apologize, but I can't quite tell what you're saying.


Clawdragons said:
PlüschTiger, I do apologize, but I can't quite tell what you're saying.

Seems to be suggesting that the lack of published rules is indictive of an absence of admission monitoring this thread.


Furrin_Gok said:
Seems to be suggesting that the lack of published rules is indictive of an absence of admission monitoring this thread.

Huh. I'd think that the fact that admins come in every page or so to focus people back on topic would be an indicator that they are monitoring the thread.


Clawdragons said:
Huh. I'd think that the fact that admins come in every page or so to focus people back on topic would be an indicator that they are monitoring the thread.

Right, but this does not help us with the actual problem. The open questions, directly to the admins asked, or please, has been ignored for 4 weeks, others before it perhaps already longer? The user leave the topic, suggests that some do not take the topic seriously. I have the feeling that the few users, who want to seriously contribute to a solution, are ignored.

I think it should be done a new forum entry, so that users are not led to come up on topics that are already resolved. In addition, even if an admin publishes rules, it finds in the many answers hardly one.

▼ German - Deutsch

Richtig, doch hilft uns das nicht bei dem eigentlichen Problem. Die offenen Fragen, direkt an die admins gestellt, oder bitte, ist seit 4 Wochen nicht beachtet worden, andere davor vielleicht schon länger? Das User das Thema verlassen, deutet darauf hin das einige das Thema nicht ernst nehmen. Ich habe das Gefühl, das die einige User, welche hier ernsthaft zu einer Lösung beitragen wollen, Ignoriert werden.

Ich denke es sollte ein koplett neuer Forumseintrag gemacht werden, damit User nicht dazu verleitet werden auf Themen zu kommen, welche bereits geklärt sind. Zudem, selbst wenn ein Admin Regeln veröffentlicht, findet sie in den vielen Antworten kaum einer.


If we are voting, I vote for andromorph/gynomorph.


I vote for no change on the grounds that the current complexity is already confusing enough. As a layman I have absolutely no idea what these andro- and gyno- words mean. I feel like these would become extra tags that will cover a broad range of things instead of creating order among the more specific classifications.

Cuntboy is literally a man with a cunt. No boobs, not a flat chested woman, only what it says on the tin. Sometimes it can't apply because it's not expressed clearly enough in the image and sometimes it's extremely descriptive. Probably the worst thing about it is the confusion it brings to the male/female and male/male tags. Gay aliases to male/male but is it really gay if the other "man" has a (for all intents and purposes, natural) vagina? These are crazy questions.

The problem with the label itself is that "cunt" is an insult and I'm almost sure I've heard "cunt boy" spoken as an insult in a movie once. Sadly I can't think of a replacement that isn't a longer x_y_z.

Mutisija
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1 month ago
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Rating: Safe
Score: 13
User: Mutisija
Date: February 19, 2016

fourroll said:
I vote for no change on the grounds that the current complexity is already confusing enough. As a layman I have absolutely no idea what these andro- and gyno- words mean. I feel like these would become extra tags that will cover a broad range of things instead of creating order among the more specific classifications.

Cuntboy is literally a man with a cunt. No boobs, not a flat chested woman, only what it says on the tin. Sometimes it can't apply because it's not expressed clearly enough in the image and sometimes it's extremely descriptive. Probably the worst thing about it is the confusion it brings to the male/female and male/male tags. Gay aliases to male/male but is it really gay if the other "man" has a (for all intents and purposes, natural) vagina? These are crazy questions.

The problem with the label itself is that "cunt" is an insult and I'm almost sure I've heard "cunt boy" spoken as an insult in a movie once. Sadly I can't think of a replacement that isn't a longer x_y_z.

again, admins already said that the change will be made. we have moved way past from "should the change be made" to "what we will change to" numerous pages ago. do we really need to go through this in every single page?


As long as I can type in the old ones and it aliases to whatever "feel good" buzz word is chosen :O


fourroll said:
I vote for no change on the grounds that the current complexity is already confusing enough. As a layman I have absolutely no idea what these andro- and gyno- words mean. I feel like these would become extra tags that will cover a broad range of things instead of creating order among the more specific classifications.

Cuntboy is literally a man with a cunt. No boobs, not a flat chested woman, only what it says on the tin. Sometimes it can't apply because it's not expressed clearly enough in the image and sometimes it's extremely descriptive. Probably the worst thing about it is the confusion it brings to the male/female and male/male tags. Gay aliases to male/male but is it really gay if the other "man" has a (for all intents and purposes, natural) vagina? These are crazy questions.

The problem with the label itself is that "cunt" is an insult and I'm almost sure I've heard "cunt boy" spoken as an insult in a movie once. Sadly I can't think of a replacement that isn't a longer x_y_z.

CamKitty said:
As long as I can type in the old ones and it aliases to whatever "feel good" buzz word is chosen :O

An alias would mean you could type in the old ones, yes.


I'm putting my support behind vaginaman/penislady and variations thereov (vagentleman/phallady) as they're unambiguous.

-∞ to andromorph/gynomorph, it's too vague and too broad

-1 to *_intersex, anything with female/male or masculine/feminine.


+1 to andomorph/gynomorph. Even though they're initially unfamiliar, they seem like the most elegant solution proposed. Aliasing and the wiki page should clear up 90% of the confusion about them.


gaunt0 said:
+1 to andomorph/gynomorph. Even though they're initially unfamiliar, they seem like the most elegant solution proposed. Aliasing and the wiki page should clear up 90% of the confusion about them.

But what exactly would they mean?
Without checking I know we at least have cuntboy, dickgirl, futa/futanari, and a few others. That's more than two. Each of these tags refer to a specific thing. Two words for all this complexity is just going to have us go around in a circle and spark the same debate again.

Lycantiger said:
I'm putting my support behind vaginaman/penislady and variations thereov (vagentleman/phallady) as they're unambiguous.

-1 to *_intersex, anything with female/male or masculine/feminine.

This, despite how words like "vaginaman" make me laugh.


fourroll said:
But what exactly would they mean?
Without checking I know we at least have cuntboy, dickgirl, futa/futanari, and a few others. That's more than two. Each of these tags refer to a specific thing. Two words for all this complexity is just going to have us go around in a circle and spark the same debate again.

Cuntboy = andromorph
Dickgirl = gynomorph
Futanari = herm, not part of this matter


Ratte said:
Cuntboy = andromorph
Dickgirl = gynomorph
Futanari = herm, not part of this matter

Then sure. +1 to that. When I read through this thread I was confused exactly what the focus was. I feel that this suggestion does have a formality to it that gives it more credibility than other mashed together words. Being Latin and googleable helps too. It's not clear on its own so it will need explanation where applicable, but that's hardly a negative when so many other options share that same downside. It's also a positive because it's so uncommon that most people will need to learn it by default.

I'm very pleased that it's at least clear what gender each applies to. I've always strongly opposed tags like intersex_abc and altersex_xyz because they can be interpreted to mean their opposite; people will think that they understand it and then will misuse it or will simply mix them up in their head. Those are much worse than the long-but-clear "genderframe_with_genitaltype" approach. Edit: Dangit but those can still cause confusion with cross dressing stuff.


I think the morph tags are the worst ones yet. The problems that were gone over a hundred times halfway through the thread never got solved even a little bit. What's the morph that determines whether it's andro or gyno? GL said the body type as opposed to the genitals at one point, but what about the body makes it qualify? What about all 21K-some girly male posts? Lithe, effete bodies that have penises on them are....apparently gynomorphs now? Because a penis but a "female" body is that? They'd just be flat_chested gynomorphs. What about a masculine body with a penis? why would someone not assume that fell under the same tag? It's clearly "male-form." No, way too confusing and contrived. I hate the idea of being that ridiculous to try and solve a problem that could be solved better.

The only part I see agreement on, and I share the agreement, is that cuntboy and dickgirl are good to ditch in favor of something better. But why did the work stop on the potentially workable specific intersex tags? The whole point here is that gender is a misnomer for sex in the tag system, and we accept that genitals and general body type are the things people care about when they're browsing porn. So those sound like the perfect solution if they're set up properly. They're clean and discoverable, and on top of that, you can wildcard them easily to get them all at once. Trying to invent words that mean exactly what words we already have do but aren't the same words is like saying teetsy instead of toilet. You still shit in it even if you say you need to go dooble... By which I mean - if we're going to the trouble of changing terms to begin with, it might as well be for the benefit of making them really useful, not just to make people feel good. Better to focus exclusively on utility, and you'll just naturally end up not being unduly offensive.


notnobody said:
I think the morph tags are the worst ones yet. The problems that were gone over a hundred times halfway through the thread never got solved even a little bit. What's the morph that determines whether it's andro or gyno? GL said the body type as opposed to the genitals at one point, but what about the body makes it qualify? What about all 21K-some girly male posts? Lithe, effete bodies that have penises on them are....apparently gynomorphs now? Because a penis but a "female" body is that? They'd just be flat_chested gynomorphs. What about a masculine body with a penis? why would someone not assume that fell under the same tag? It's clearly "male-form." No, way too confusing and contrived. I hate the idea of being that ridiculous to try and solve a problem that could be solved better.

The only part I see agreement on, and I share the agreement, is that cuntboy and dickgirl are good to ditch in favor of something better. But why did the work stop on the potentially workable specific intersex tags? The whole point here is that gender is a misnomer for sex in the tag system, and we accept that genitals and general body type are the things people care about when they're browsing porn. So those sound like the perfect solution if they're set up properly. They're clean and discoverable, and on top of that, you can wildcard them easily to get them all at once. Trying to invent words that mean exactly what words we already have do but aren't the same words is like saying teetsy instead of toilet. You still shit in it even if you say you need to go dooble... By which I mean - if we're going to the trouble of changing terms to begin with, it might as well be for the benefit of making them really useful, not just to make people feel good. Better to focus exclusively on utility, and you'll just naturally end up not being unduly offensive.

Morphs are purely for our existing tags, just renamed. They don't cover girly men or manly women.


Furrin_Gok said:
Morphs are purely for our existing tags, just renamed. They don't cover girly men or manly women.

But they do, is my point. They're intended to replace cuntboy and dickgirl, and they would, but it's like using napalm to take care of your mouse problem at home. They naturally encompass a bunch of things they're not meant to, which makes them both less useful for the task they're meant to do and a problem for people understanding other things.


notnobody said:
But they do, is my point. They're intended to replace cuntboy and dickgirl, and they would, but it's like using napalm to take care of your mouse problem at home. They naturally encompass a bunch of things they're not meant to, which makes them both less useful for the task they're meant to do and a problem for people understanding other things.

Not really, the words andromorph and gynomorph may appear general enough to apply to femboys and mascgirls, but that's not how they will be used. This discussion is solely about finding suitable replacements for the cboy and dgirl tags, so the new tags will have the same definitions and will be used for the exact same purpose as the current tags. If the new tags didn't behave exactly the same as the tags they are supposed to replace, then they wouldn't be very good replacements.


JAKXXX3 said:
If the new tags didn't behave exactly the same as the tags they are supposed to replace, then they wouldn't be very good replacements.

That's what makes those not good replacements. If you want something to behave a certain way, design it to do so. Don't just declare that it will. If you were tired of drinking out of a hollowed out squirrel skull and wanted a replacement, I'd hand you a glass, not hand you a gas canister while saying "Don't worry, it'll behave like a drinking glass. That's what I'm giving it to you for. From now on, people will naturally understand that things like this are for drinking." There's no reason to accept a solution that's only exchanging one demon for another just because everybody's fatigued by a discussion that's dragged on way too long.

Edit: And just to reiterate, it's not even just a matter of scope. They can be confusing even at small scale. Andromorph could just as easily mean female body but andromorphic genitals as it could andromorphic body but female genitals. They're useless fiat words that offend just the same size swath of the population for completely different reasons, but with the added trouble of also being confusing.


Notnobody has a point. andromorph means "An organism with male physical characteristics". You know what generally has male physical characteristics? Males. Using a term that doesn't specifically mean the thing you plan to use it for will lead to people repeatedly contesting it, especially if they interpret a word that means "anything with male characteristics" as "anything with male characteristics" instead of "anything with male characteristics that isn't male".


notnobody said:
That's what makes those not good replacements. If you want something to behave a certain way, design it to do so. Don't just declare that it will. If you were tired of drinking out of a hollowed out squirrel skull and wanted a replacement, I'd hand you a glass, not hand you a gas canister while saying "Don't worry, it'll behave like a drinking glass. That's what I'm giving it to you for. From now on, people will naturally understand that things like this are for drinking." There's no reason to accept a solution that's only exchanging one demon for another just because everybody's fatigued by a discussion that's dragged on way too long.

The problem with that is that these terms don't really exist anywhere else, unless they're used in esoteric discussion such as science. The words Andromorph and Gynomorph in this thread were basically created for the purpose of being replacements, thus we can give them any definition we want. Well, anything that vaguely keeps in line with the greek(?) definition of the words the terms were derived from, namely, male-like and female-like.

BlueDingo said:
Notnobody has a point. andromorph means "An organism with male physical characteristics". You know what generally has male physical characteristics? Males. Using a term that doesn't specifically mean the thing you plan to use it for will lead to people repeatedly contesting it, especially if they interpret a word that means "anything with male characteristics" as "anything with male characteristics" instead of "anything with male characteristics that isn't male".

Yeah, but as I said above, in adopting these terms we can mold their definitions to suit their purpose. Andromorph may apply to any being vaguely resembling a male in common discussion, but in order to aid our tagging system, it would be given a new esoteric meaning as a replacement for 'cuntboy'. As such, in the context of e621, andromorph will become completely synonymous with cuntboy, if it succeeds in being chosen as the new tag. The same would of course apply for gynomorph and dickgirl.