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Ko-san said:
I use words you shouldn't use in real life in real life :p

Like I said


NotMeNotYou said:
I don't think using trans* would help, because not only does this reference the identified gender of a character instead of the displayed sex, but also that there are simply too many characters that were essentially born with a non-binary body.
If we would make this change I'd give it a whooping two weeks before someone comes in and complains that their character isn't trans or doesn't identify as trans; as such we'd just be swapping one set of problems against another without having a solution everybody benefits from.

Just for the record, I am absolutely not against using better sounding terms, one of my favorites so far is "vagentlemen" as a substitute for cuntboys, but sadly they didn't have any ideas for dickgirls.

I suppose I agree. It isnt fair to use trans* cause it does imply things etc.

So yeah youre right. But we definitely need something better. Vagentleman is cute as all hell. A lot better than something that literally starts with the word cunt.

The fact that a lot of the users here are treating this like a joke and acting like its a non issue is kinda part of the point of the culture it creates in general and the point I was making initially. V~V'

I do like the terms brought up in the post Kida made.

Kida said:
I personally preferred the suggestions brought up in forum #140749

While the terms may not have been used as slurs/insults, they still feel rather vulgar to most. Good to know the administration is open to feedback so long as good alternatives are proposed (I don't think trans* is a good alternative for reasons stated here).

The terms are definitely a step more in the right direction. We could go somewhere in terms of making these more utilized.

ambiguous_gender
binary
female (female)
male (male)
hermaphrodite
androherm (maleherm)
gynoherm (herm)
intersex
andromorph ('cuntboy')
gynomorph (dickgirl)

These are functional tags. But perhaps we can improve on these and use them as a base. I personally find them pretty ok and Ill be asking my friends in the community what They think as well.

Lance_Armstrong said:
To clarify, this offhand statement means aliasing female, male, herm, intersex, cuntboy, and dickgirl to invalid_tag right? If so, this statement summarizes the thread for me by taking a system that works reasonably well and proposing the worst possible solution. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

The only other way I can interpret this comment is that you want to broaden the definition of ambiguous_gender.

The good news is that if we decided to alias terms like cuntboy to a less offensive term like vagentlemen, search links and blacklists with cuntboy in them will not break. While the tags list will become more politically correct on the surface, cuntboy and dickgirl will thus never really be defeated.

We should proactively alias the N-word to dark_skin (I'm not saying this to be a smartass, I just don't want to be the one to type it in the suggest box.

I only meant broadening the term. Making all those tags invalid breaks the site and beats the purpose of using them. I actually specifically meant replacing/aliasing out ambiguous_gender to ambiguous_sex instead because physical sex means nothing to gender.

Its not about getting rid of the words completely either. But you have to start somewhere. Aliasing something out is a start in the right direction. Sorta like autocorrect. If you see the new word taking place of the old one long enough it becomes /normalized/ and when its normalized the other one becomes archaic and falls out of use.

As to that last point yeah thats probably a good idea.

Genjar
Contributor
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Hm. Andromorph and gynomorph might actually work as replacements. Those have a long history, and Latin terms are rarely considered 'offensive'.

They're not terribly hard to spell either, compared to some alternatives.


Hey there guys.

So went out and asked some folks and generally the concensus I got was. Nobody is quite sure but heres suggestions.

Theelderscrotes, a popular user who has a lot of commentary on the subject in general and is part of the trans community had this to say:

"Just. call them. trans characters.
furry communities, and all porn communities really, are absolutely terrified of fessing up that they like trans bodies. they try to push awful terms on them, or make up fantastical excuses for them, or insist they only like the fictional concept of trans bodies, but they’re just kidding themselves. they’re trans. they should not need a term to other them because pornographers need to realize they can’t hide behind fictional concepts that make their interests ‘safe’, and realize real goddamn people exist with the very same bodies they desire
if cis people are going to lust after people like me, i’d prefer that they be straight up about it instead of pretending they’re into fictional, ‘impossible’ concepts
as for the people going ‘oh but what about people with vaginas and dicks and other configurations’, they still aren’t cis. however, this nice nb artist coined the term ‘altersex’ which sounds like a nice alternative."

An nonbinary artist named SpottyJaguar from the furry community here suggests we use the terms altersex.

Which is really easy to remember and use. Such as Altermale instead of Cboy and Alterfemale instead of dickgirl.

You can find their discussion on weasyl but basically the gist is

"
"Altersex" is a catch-all term consisting of alter, meant here as "different" or "another possibility," and sex, referring to physiological primary and secondary sex characteristics. Alterssx is meant to be used largely, but not exclusively, for fictional characters, describing body plans that are a mix of things, rather than the usually-found configurations.
Here, a body plan is just what type of parts you have or don't have. A penis, testicles, a vulva, a clitoris, developed breasts, etc.

Grammatically, it is an adjective, not a noun. A character simply is altersex, they are not an altersex (noun), and are not altersexed (strange past-tense verb). Being altersex covers setups like having breasts as well as a penis with testicles, or a penis in place of a clitoris on a vulva, having a vulva without having breasts, or (regardless of breasts) having a penis with testicles as well as a vulva. The latter means it can also act as an alternative for herm."

They also imply that you /shouldnt/ use this for making new terms but for functionality of tags purposes altermale and alterfemale are still better choices than cboy and dgirl.

It also unimplicates the intersex tag and allows for easier tagging overall.

My girlfriend judes commented that

In regards to andromorph gynomorph, "definitely an improvement, still kinda focused on genitals more than necessary

"intersex" would be fine for ambiguous genitalia, and personally i'm ok with "herm" for having both sets of fully functional genitalia but i know some people may not be. I feel like the terms they're suggesting will be a definite improvement if they aren't willing to just tag "trans man" or "trans woman" or similar
i mean i dunno how much traction would be there, but there are definitely ways to tell apart trans bodies and cis bodies with the genitalia swapped, and honestly i'm of the opinion that the second kind is prone to leading to the objectification and fetishization of trans people, but i don't imagine a site like this would want to take a stance like that. Like if I had to choose between an artist having their trans woman character called a dickgirl and an artist having their "dickgirl" called a trans woman then I know which one I'd go with, but I also don't see e621 feeling pressured to make that kind of statement"

And lastly a couple others I talked to are completely fine with using the terms andromorph and gynomorph. But most people seem to prefer either the trans* term or use altersex.

In the end i personally like Andromorph and Gynomorph as well as the Altersex label. As they all function extremely well and are easy to remember and use.


My two cents on the matter? I generally don't use the two terms myself, because I kinda feel they're objectional, but we're discussing fantasy images, and tagging them based on what we can see in the image via established terminology rather than what some other part of the internet insists it is.

Transsexual terms like "Transman" and "Transwoman" are all fine and dandy, except what if in this magical world of furries there are, say, characters who are born with both sets, or mixed sexual characteristics? I mean who's to say that when we shrug off reality for a fictional setting, that having both a penis and a vagina is statistically normal in 40% or more of individuals.

And we can't prove whether or not the character shown in an image was born with a penis and breasts or a vagina with a masculine body shape, or if they went through HRT/SRS unless that's specifically being shown or discussed in the image.


GDelscribe said:
In regards to andromorph gynomorph, "definitely an improvement, still kinda focused on genitals more than necessary

Does she understand how tags work here? We focus on what the body is, not what the person thinks. The genitals are an important part of the body.

I'm still against "Trans-" tags because it comes with the non-true implication of "Trans-sexual" where a person undergoes a sex change. I just can't see that term as meaning anything else. There's nothing wrong with a person who has undergone such a change, but as I have said before, it's very rare that you can tell from the picture alone that that's what happened.
The -Morph suffixed tags are pretty great, though. Somehow, despite the word morph literally meaning "To change," I can hear it and think "It just means the form."
Altersex tags are fairly straightforward, too. Alternate form for a female body--female who has a penis instead, alternate. I like the -morph ones better, though.


I personally really like the -morph tags as theyre succinct and fitting.

Also technically no. Because a person who hasnt gone through hormone therapy or a sex change but identifies as a different gender is still "trans"

But anyway I do like alter- and -morph a lot as theyre super functional.


GDelscribe said:
Also technically no. Because a person who hasnt gone through hormone therapy or a sex change but identifies as a different gender is still "trans"

I understand, but I can't shake the way I "know" the word.


GDelscribe said:
Theelderscrotes, a popular user who has a lot of commentary on the subject in general and is part of the trans community had this to say:

"Just. call them. trans characters.
furry communities, and all porn communities really, are absolutely terrified of fessing up that they like trans bodies. they try to push awful terms on them, or make up fantastical excuses for them, or insist they only like the fictional concept of trans bodies, but they’re just kidding themselves. they’re trans. they should not need a term to other them because pornographers need to realize they can’t hide behind fictional concepts that make their interests ‘safe’, and realize real goddamn people exist with the very same bodies they desire
if cis people are going to lust after people like me, i’d prefer that they be straight up about it instead of pretending they’re into fictional, ‘impossible’ concepts
as for the people going ‘oh but what about people with vaginas and dicks and other configurations’, they still aren’t cis. however, this nice nb artist coined the term ‘altersex’ which sounds like a nice alternative."

This person is successfully wrong on every single argument simply because they miss the entire point of the argument.
We don't tag the gender of a character, we tag the sex. Reality has no bearing on this because we still need to differentiate between characters who have it visible that they have undergone surgery to change their sex/body type, and characters who are "normal" in that sex/body type.
Nevermind that trans still implies that there is a difference between sex and gender of the person, and it'd be very much possible that a "transboy" identifies as male while having female genitalia, and I am not willing to open that can of worms in the tags.
That dude/gal/whatever doesn't understand what type of shit storm this would cause.


NotMeNotYou said:
This person is successfully wrong on every single argument simply because they miss the entire point of the argument.
We don't tag the gender of a character, we tag the sex. Reality has no bearing on this because we still need to differentiate between characters who have it visible that they have undergone surgery to change their sex/body type, and characters who are "normal" in that sex/body type.
Nevermind that trans still implies that there is a difference between sex and gender of the person, and it'd be very much possible that a "transboy" identifies as male while having female genitalia, and I am not willing to open that can of worms in the tags.
That dude/gal/whatever doesn't understand what type of shit storm this would cause.

Thats a fair difference to make. Which is why Im now proposing andromorph gynomorph or altersex.

Is this a better compromise?


NotMeNotYou said:
I don't think using trans* would help, because not only does this reference the identified gender of a character instead of the displayed sex, but also that there are simply too many characters that were essentially born with a non-binary body.
If we would make this change I'd give it a whooping two weeks before someone comes in and complains that their character isn't trans or doesn't identify as trans; as such we'd just be swapping one set of problems against another without having a solution everybody benefits from.

Just for the record, I am absolutely not against using better sounding terms, one of my favorites so far is "vagentlemen" as a substitute for cuntboys, but sadly they didn't have any ideas for dickgirls.

What about "Phalladies"?


Forgive me if this was already suggested, but if you wish a simple change to remove slur tags, why not just change cuntboy and Dickgirl to Pussy-boy and Penis-girl? Hyphen not needed, but suggested. We already use penis and pussy for tagging purposes, not dick and cunt, and Herm pretty much works in a nutshell.

I didn't read the walls of text, but it feels to be the simplest solution that retains the specific TWYS rules, yet removes the slurs on both ends.


Siral_Exan said:
Forgive me if this was already suggested, but if you wish a simple change to remove slur tags, why not just change cuntboy and Dickgirl to Pussy-boy and Penis-girl? Hyphen not needed, but suggested. We already use penis and pussy for tagging purposes, not dick and cunt, and Herm pretty much works in a nutshell.

I didn't read the walls of text, but it feels to be the simplest solution that retains the specific TWYS rules, yet removes the slurs on both ends.

I guess but I think a lot of people are fundamentally misunderstanding the nature of the words themselves.

Its penisgirl isnt too much better than dickgirl.

Its a step up but its not huge.


Person_with_culturally_defined_feminine_body_equipped_with_male_genitalia

Person_with_culturally_defined_masculine_body_equipped_with_female_genitalia

😐


GDelscribe said:
I guess but I think a lot of people are fundamentally misunderstanding the nature of the words themselves.

Its penisgirl isnt too much better than dickgirl.

Its a step up but its not huge.

Well, we can either take a step back up, or some asshole will kick us back down...

However, that was not the only idea I had, just an OK one. Another was Character_Alias:*. it'd be used ONLY for characters whom artists want, so no random passerby being tagged with this if it's a filler person or unnamed character. It'd have to be brought up to the artist, and they have right to say the alias or to choose to not say one, AND it'd apply to all genders if needed, but only when it'd be a opposite gender (example given below).

An example: Orobas (from PurpleKecleon) had been tagged male, and PK wished her female, to which they had themselves become DNP, but not their copyright, when denied. Should we use this format, Orobas would also have Character_Alias:Female, if they would want her to be allowed on site. Vice-versa, Beleth, a female character, does not get said tag ever, at all; crossgender would apply if needed. (I'm purposely choosing this example, BTW, 'cause it's the quickest to say) All artists whom want an alias can ask an admin or make some ticket, and/or have enough proof (screenshots of an image w/ an artist saying), to have their character imply the tag, and it'd apply regardless of crossgender (Orobas being CG'd into female will still have Character_alias:female), so you can always find the character by searching Character_alias:*.

I'd wish to make a specific note, here, if this needs more detail: A, we allow species that aren't easily TWYS to occur, but we do ignore tagging sexual dimorphism to happen. This would also make Charrs or etc. to have the alias tag, but still not change their TWYS genders; B, with my above example, and artist can choose to follow the tagging rules or remove their art/image should they want to. They are never forced to be on this site, so my above tag is to mediate problems if an artist feels it needed. If an artist does not care, don't bother telling them to gender-alias their character. This solution is to give artists the ability to alias their character via background information, and also not fuck with TWYS.

One last statement: I don't know if character_alias or character_implied would fit more. This was a mental argument I had over a walk, so pick your poison on the tag's name.


Characters drawn with mismatched parts (breasts + penis, no breasts/pecs + vagina) are not automatically trans. This has been the issue the last several times this matter has been brought up.


I feel like bringing this up, because it's somewhat relevant and also super interesting.

Warning: contains photographs of human genitalia, presented for the purpose of illustration:

http://usrf.org/news/010308-guevedoces.html

Also:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gynecomastia


Clawdragons said:
I feel like bringing this up, because it's somewhat relevant and also super interesting.

Warning: contains photographs of human genitalia, presented for the purpose of illustration:

http://usrf.org/news/010308-guevedoces.html

Also:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gynecomastia

So what is it? I'd like more than a nudity warning if I'm going to go to a site for information.


Ko-san said:
So what is it? I'd like more than a nudity warning if I'm going to go to a site for information.

The tl;dr is that men are born with a hormone deficit that has them appear like girls until puberty hits. Once they reach puberty they will grow a functioning penis and balls, develop beards and live normal lives as men.
The nudity warning is because they have documentation of some nude kids to show the effects, with genitalia visible.


Ko-san said:
So what is it? I'd like more than a nudity warning if I'm going to go to a site for information.

I don't entirely understand what you want from me. I linked a site for information, so before you go there you want me to give you the information you'd find if you went there? Or, were you looking for something else from me?

If the former... Well, it seems a bit redundant. But NMNY gave you a good summary.

The second one describes gynecomastia, which is a condition wherein a male develops feminine-appearing breasts.

I am genuinely very confused, if all you wanted was a summary for some reason or if there was some other reason behind your question.


I am offended by the tag "ambiguous_gender" as it existence implies that gender is important

We should also remove tags such as cross_dressing and girly as these are social constructs. Also please remove the tags gay, straight and lesbian as these all imply the characters sexuality. For example I identify as straight but at the same time had sex with a non-male identifying person. Tagging me as lesbian would be incorrect and insulting (for some reason miss identifying a persons sexuality is insulting)


Clawdragons said:
I don't entirely understand what you want from me. I linked a site for information, so before you go there you want me to give you the information you'd find if you went there? Or, were you looking for something else from me?

If the former... Well, it seems a bit redundant. But NMNY gave you a good summary.

The second one describes gynecomastia, which is a condition wherein a male develops feminine-appearing breasts.

I am genuinely very confused, if all you wanted was a summary for some reason or if there was some other reason behind your question.

By telling me what gynecomastia was you provided what I sought. I warning for what the actual site was other than simply nudity. Though I thank you NotMeNotYou for the summary.

Basically, I don't want any unwanted surprises and I can deal with nudity and language. For instance, If I linked to Fetus in Fetu without mentioning the least bit what it was and merely told people there was some nudity, someone who didn't know what it was that followed the link may be traumatized, even mildly so, from the ordeal.


CuteCoughDeath said:
I am offended by the tag "ambiguous_gender" as it existence implies that gender is important

We should also remove tags such as cross_dressing and girly as these are social constructs. Also please remove the tags gay, straight and lesbian as these all imply the characters sexuality. For example I identify as straight but at the same time had sex with a non-male identifying person. Tagging me as lesbian would be incorrect and insulting (for some reason miss identifying a persons sexuality is insulting)

Gay, straight, and lesbian are gone. They have been replaced with male/male, male/female, and female/female. Regarding the rest, I'm not sure if you're serious or just trolling, especially since we don't tag gender, we tag sex. Which is important. Though gender is important for self-identification as well.


Ko-san said:
Regarding the rest, I'm not sure if you're serious or just trolling

Pretty sure she's making a joke. I wouldn't exactly call it trolling.

Ko-san said:
By telling me what gynecomastia was you provided what I sought.

I generally try to warn people if there's questionable content in something I'm linking, though I would not have thought to provide any warnings for fetus in fetu because that seems pretty tame to me (unless there were, say, surgery images, which I'd provide a warning for that too.


Ratte said:
Characters drawn with mismatched parts (breasts + penis, no breasts/pecs + vagina) are not automatically trans. This has been the issue the last several times this matter has been brought up.

Regardless of this Dickgirl and Cuntboy are outright slurs. Regardless of personal views on the matter.

We can argue til were blue in the face on the argument of whether characters are trans etc or not. Clearly im not going to win anything on that front but there is a clear and present problem here that needs to be adressed and something that people need to stop ignoring and acting like a its a non issue.

What im suggesting is alternatives to that set of tags.

Gynomorph and Andromorph have been recieved pretty positively. Altersex seems to go over well with people.

Furthermore regardless of that fact in the end it is still /less insulting/ and problematic to call a character trans based on logical deduction rather than intentionally dancing around the topic to continue using slurs.

Since everyone is universally opposed to using trans* tags in one way or another I am suggesting alternative tags.

We no longer use terms like gay or lesbian on the site and they arent offensive to 90% of people. We use male/male female/female now.

This isnt any different.

Im aware intersex and herm characters exist. I personally have a lot of intersexed or hermaphrodite characters as well as several trans characters in varying stages of transition.

Its gotten to the point where I cant upload anything here without fear of someone using tags like dgirl/cboy etc ans admittedly half the time incorrectly I might add.

The nature of the policies here on the matter have scared away tons of artists and uploaders alike.

So theres something clearly wrong.

Also Siral Exan has an extremely good idea as well thats worth considering maybe?

And one more last thing.

If these characters arent Trans* in any way why arent they called breasted_boys or flat_chested girls?

Theyre called cBOY and dGIRL. Its literally in the name that it represents trans characters. These are names the porn industry uses to refer to "transexuals" when not calling them tranny or shemale or some other awful thing.

Please. Look at the situation and be reasonable.


GDelscribe said:
We no longer use terms like gay or lesbian on the site and they arent offensive to 90% of people. We use male/male female/female now.

This isnt any different.

That was because straight, gay and lesbian resulted in a lot of mistaggings. The change to female/female, male/female and male/male had nothing at all to do with slurs or offense and had everything to do with clarifying how the tags were supposed to be used.


Clawdragons said:
That was because straight, gay and lesbian resulted in a lot of mistaggings. The change to female/female, male/female and male/male had nothing at all to do with slurs or offense and had everything to do with clarifying how the tags were supposed to be used.

Not arguing at all but Im curious how that misstagging was happening. I mean the tags are functionally identical.


GDelscribe said:
Not arguing at all but Im curious how that misstagging was happening. I mean the tags are functionally identical.

People would tag solo images with the tags. The idea being that a solo male picture is gay (with the assumption that the viewer is male), while a solo female picture would be tagged as straight (same assumption). Also the tags were sometimes used for characters that stated their orientation, rather than there being any sexual interaction being depicted.

The new names for the tags make their purpose much more intuitive, resulting in fewer mistags.


GDelscribe said:
If these characters arent Trans* in any way why arent they called breasted_boys or flat_chested girls?

ಠ_ಠ "section" DText... for some reason, any post i come across that happens to be overly lengthy has this in the quote but otherwise it fails to work properly. not sure if it's an issue on my end or something else.

on topic: huh, could've sworn there was a flat_chested_female (or something similar) tag. as for the "breasted_boys" idea...that sounds stupid. sounds more like what someone would say when teasing a person or something.


Siral_Exan said:
One last statement: I don't know if character_alias or character_implied would fit more. This was a mental argument I had over a walk, so pick your poison on the tag's name.

It looks like an implication to me, not an alias. Could definitely be explained more clearly though, so I might have misunderstood it.