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Creating Better Tags for intersex and trans characters

In category: Tag Alias and Implication Suggestions

Hi there. So heres whats happened so far in case you missed it and want a synopsis.

The Tags have been given a go ahead for a change on the grounds they are vulgar. The issue comes down to clarity and efficiency.

If you are here simply to complain then please leave before you even begin. This is not a discussion about whether or not the tags are an issue but what the best possible alternative tags are. Thank you for your cooperation.

Right now the main goal is to figure out what tags would be best without being vulgar or just causing the same problem we already have.

Some tags have gotten ground,

Andromorph and Gynomorph
Masculine_intersex and feminine_intersex
And variations on "bodytype_with_genitaltype"

If you have nothing to contribute on the matter or are here to complain this is too pc please consider that we have gone 30 pages of people like you complaining and wasting our time and frankly its neither wanted not needed. Further I must remind that there has been admin confirmation that there is an issue with the vulgarity of the tags and that they can be changed. So please refrain if all youre going to be is uncivil and rude or conplainant.

[ORIGINAL POST STARTS BELOW]
I know this has come up countless times probably but its a problem. A big one honestly and the fact that the community is still using terms like Dickgirl and Cuntboy (really?) In this day and age is kinda apalling.

What we need are tags that are still straight and to the point falling under the twys guidelines.

Id suggested transboy (to replace cuntboy) and transgirl (and replace dickgirl) but was shot down by the previous admin under the principles of "tag what you know."
We know however for a fact that this site runs on "Tag what you see" rules and for the mostpart if a character is gender bent to have those different/extra parts its safe to say they fall under the umbrella of what you would call transgender as after all that simply means anything that is not the birth or creation assigned gender.

Its 2016. We need to move on from these outdated insulting terms.

Transgirl would replace dickgirl. Usage is the same as the current dickgirl wiki entry. A character with boobs and an otherwise female ish body and a penis+balls.

Intersex should replace any instance of the term futanari if it hasnt already as futanari specifically refers to female gwnitals where the clitoris has been replaced with a penis.

Transboy would replace cuntboy for the same reasons as above. An overall male body with no breasts and a vulva/vagina.

Herm is still an applicable term and refers to characters with both sets of genitals. A penis, balls and a vagina/vulva.

If anyone has any LEGITIMATE problems with this please raise them in a civil manner.


Wouldn't a trans be someone who got a sex change? Not someone who merely looms like a man but has a vagina or looks like a woman but has a penis? Als, futanari is just the japanese term for hermaphrodite and is used interchangeably with shemale and transexual people. It isn't specifically for penile clitoris.


Here we go again...


What's wrong with the words Cuntboy ("One who looks like a male but has a vagina instead," straight and to the point) and dickgirl ("one who looks like a female but has a dick instead," also straight and to the point)? They're straightforward and to the point, whereas "Transboy" is a confusing term, is it that the boy underwent transexual surgery, or somebody became a boy through transexual surgery? The "Trans" part also says "Underwent transexual surgery" which we can't often see. "Crossgender" is one of the tags that can be planted onto an image based on outside information, but transexual surgery is not. There are canons based around alternate universes where differences can be as simple as different genders.


Ko-san said:
Wouldn't a trans be someone who got a sex change? Not someone who merely looms like a man but has a vagina or looks like a woman but has a penis? Als, futanari is just the japanese term for hermaphrodite and is used interchangeably with shemale and transexual people. It isn't specifically for penile clitoris.

Trans refers to someone who identifies as the other gender/has partial characteristics of the other gender. Thats it thats all it means. Theres no requirement for surgery to have happened to be trans.

Furthermore every time the term futanari is used in Doujin. You know where the term comes from. It specifically refers to girls with a dick, no balls and a vulva.


Furrin_Gok said:
What's wrong with the words Cuntboy ("One who looks like a male but has a vagina instead," straight and to the point) and dickgirl ("one who looks like a female but has a dick instead," also straight and to the point)? They're straightforward and to the point, whereas "Transboy" is a confusing term, is it that the boy underwent transexual surgery, or somebody became a boy through transexual surgery? The "Trans" part also says "Underwent transexual surgery" which we can't often see. "Crossgender" is one of the tags that can be planted onto an image based on outside information, but transexual surgery is not. There are canons based around alternate universes where differences can be as simple as different genders.

Ok one. The way youre using crossgender is literally no different from the term transgender.

Its obviously not Too confusing a concept.

Two, as a good friend of mine who is trans put it. Much better than I could.

"Something along the lines of "these terms are harmful outside the community because they lead to the objectification and stereotyping of real life people.
Like trans girls getting called dickgirls or traps or whatever irl

As if their identity boils down to a kink or something
Plus they have a weird othering effect

Like you're saying "a girl but with a dick" or "a boy but with a vag"

And identities do not equal parts."

Lastly. Theyre slurs that the entire trans community find offensive. A lot of furs are trans.

You wouldnt tag a black skinned human with the N word. Right? Same reason we dont use the term "ebony" anymore.


GDelscribe said:
Ok one. The way youre using crossgender is literally no different from the term transgender.

Its obviously not Too confusing a concept.

Two, as a good friend of mine who is trans put it. Much better than I could.

"Something along the lines of "these terms are harmful outside the community because they lead to the objectification and stereotyping of real life people.
Like trans girls getting called dickgirls or traps or whatever irl

As if their identity boils down to a kink or something
Plus they have a weird othering effect

Like you're saying "a girl but with a dick" or "a boy but with a vag"

And identities do not equal parts."

Lastly. Theyre slurs that the entire trans community find offensive. A lot of furs are trans.

You wouldnt tag a black skinned human with the N word. Right? Same reason we dont use the term "ebony" anymore.

If you're taking offense to a term that isn't being used in an offensive manner, that's your own problem. Don't try to punish us for using perfectly innocent words. You wanted a straight forward and to the point tag, there you have it. We tag what we see, not what we know; a person identifying as one gender or the other is something to know, not see.

Real life people should be known, but fictional are fictional. If you can't understand that there's a difference between the two, then use the takedown tool to remove images of your character.


Furrin_Gok said:
If you're taking offense to a term that isn't being used in an offensive manner, that's your own problem. Don't try to punish us for using perfectly innocent words. You wanted a straight forward and to the point tag, there you have it. We tag what we see, not what we know; a person identifying as one gender or the other is something to know, not see.

Real life people should be known, but fictional are fictional. If you can't understand that there's a difference between the two, then use the takedown tool to remove images of your character.

Nobody is punishing anyone.

I dont think you even read what I said?

And this is supposed to be a civil discussion theres no need to act like Im personally attacking you.

The issue isnt me taking offense. It doesnt matter the intent when something is fundamentally offensive and denigrating to an entire group of people.

Tagwhatyousee still applies to my proposed tags and theres nothing wrong with them. Theres nothing confusing about them.

Dickgirl changes to transgirl.
Cuntboy changes to transboy.

Its essy to understand. It fulfills the same purpose without being fundamentally demeaning.

Again. Like I said before. You wouldnt tag a dark skinned human as the N word or "ebony". You wouldnt tag an asian character with offensive slurs by nature od them being asian. Why should trans people be demeaned and treated like lesser people?

Its not a case of sepearating fiction from reality. Its understanding that slurs cause real world harm regardless of intent.

This is a community and it includes all kinds of people. Its time to grow up and act like adults and drop the slur tags.

It alienates a large portion of the furry userbase and has pushed a lot of people away from here. E621 has a negative reputation for a lot of thingd and this is a big one.


Qmannn said:
I've heard "shemale" being used as a slur because people equate being male to "penis (and balls)", but never dickgirl nor cuntboy. Are those actually used to insult others or do you just not like the informal names for those sexes?

I don't like transboy and transgirl if only for the fact that sex and gender aren't the same thing and, by the same token, transgender and transex aren't the same. Similarly, I feel that ambiguous_gender being changed to ambiguous_sex would help to discourage conversations regarding gender identity because that's completely irrelevant to TWYS.

Also, you failed to take maleherm into account.

Thats a really good point and Ill have to think on that for a bit. I also agree with a you for the ambiguous_sex tag thats brilliant and cuts a lot of issues out.

As to the terms, theyre slurs for the same reason as shemale, trap, heshe, etc are actually!

I sort of agree with you on that as if were tagging by sex perhaps transboy/transgirl arent optimal either as they do implicate gender slightly but they can be used still interchangeably with people post or mid transition. So. *shrug*

Do you have any suggestions as to better terms?
.

Clawdragons
Privileged
1 year ago

I'm not really a big fan of either dickgirl/cuntboy or transgirl/transboy.

I think we should avoid indicating trans* one way or another, for various reasons. It seems to me, as far as furries go, there are simply more than two sexes, and a character can be between sexes without being in the middle of a transition or anything of the like.

Especially when we start dealing with species that might already break human sex and gender trends. Genital slits, cloacae, and pseudopenises are obnoxious enough to tag as it is without adding in the additional emotional weight associated with trans* issues when they clearly aren't applicable.

What we need is a general solution to the problem of sex and gender tagging, but I've yet to see any satisfactory solutions that gain any traction.


I'm okay with the terms cuntboy, shemale, and trans/trans-gender, and queer, but dickgirl sounds off for me. No idea why.

Ledian
Privileged
1 year ago
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User: Ledian
Date: February 28, 2017

as trans masc person, i find the term cuntboy offensive. i cant speak for all trans folk but i am fairly sure that all those terms are offensive and not really nice to use even if they are not meant as insults.

but one problem is that its not very easy to find non offensive replacement for these words that are 1. easy to understand what its meant for 2. not excessively long. but if someone actually is able to find an usable replacement, there is absolutely no reason to not change them.

Chaser
Janitor
1 year ago
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Date: November 04, 2014

I suggest these terms:
Male → Cockman
Female → Vaginawoman
Cuntboy → Vaginaman
Dickgirl → Cockwoman
Herm → Selfreproductivefurrymadness
Maleherm → twoinone
Ambiguous_gender → atleasthasabootyhole
Featureless_crotch → barbie

Peekaboo
Contributor
1 year ago
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I'd wager 99% of furry characters were equipped with the right junk when they were born, instead of changing genders through surgical and nonsurgical means, as people do in the real world. So calling them transsexual wouldn't be right either.


haven't we had this discussion like 203 times before

pls stop


Clawdragons said:
I'm not really a big fan of either dickgirl/cuntboy or transgirl/transboy.

I think we should avoid indicating trans* one way or another, for various reasons. It seems to me, as far as furries go, there are simply more than two sexes, and a character can be between sexes without being in the middle of a transition or anything of the like.

Especially when we start dealing with species that might already break human sex and gender trends. Genital slits, cloacae, and pseudopenises are obnoxious enough to tag as it is without adding in the additional emotional weight associated with trans* issues when they clearly aren't applicable.

What we need is a general solution to the problem of sex and gender tagging, but I've yet to see any satisfactory solutions that gain any traction.

Thats actually is a really really fair statement. As a writer of speculative science fiction who has a lot of unusual specied (some of which dont even have a gender binary and a few that dont have a sex binary either) its a fair assessment to make that we might need to think a little harder than using trans* umbrella terms but. Still...

Mutisija said:
as trans masc person, i find the term cuntboy offensive. i cant speak for all trans folk but i am fairly sure that all those terms are offensive and not really nice to use even if they are not meant as insults.

but one problem is that its not very easy to find non offensive replacement for these words that are 1. easy to understand what its meant for 2. not excessively long. but if someone actually is able to find an usable replacement, there is absolutely no reason to not change them.

I been trying to come up with somethin that pleases everyone! But its surprisingly hard. To be fair it would probably be easier to avoid gender and sex tags outright if possible.

I cant speak for much myself. Im nb and generally dont care for gender terms or sex terms myself but. My girlfriends both agree that dickgirl and cboy are universally offensive.

Qmannn said:

Honestly, I don't have a problem with what we currently have. The tags are just supposed to give people an idea of what they'll be seeing.

The latter point is valid but to be fair. Its not the place of cis folks to decide what is and isnt ok for the trans community you know? Even if you personally dont have an issue with the tags. A lot of people, myself included do. And yeah I get it theyre utilitarian and handy but its not worth the negative aspects.


Qmannn said:
I've heard "shemale" being used as a slur because people equate being male to "penis (and balls)", but never dickgirl nor cuntboy. Are those actually used to insult others or do you just not like the informal names used for those sexes?

I don't like transboy and transgirl if only for the fact that sex and gender aren't the same thing and, by the same token, transgender and intersex/transex aren't the same. Similarly, I feel that ambiguous_gender being changed to ambiguous_sex would help to discourage conversations regarding gender identity because that's completely irrelevant to TWYS.

Also, you failed to take maleherm into account.

Honestly, I don't have a problem with what we currently have. The tags are just supposed to give people an idea of what they'll be seeing and the various intersexes don't have widely accepted terms (yet). Intersex literally means between sexes and most intersexed individuals are going to be leaning closer to one sex or the other.

This basically would have been my retort. We don't tag gender here, only sex, so trans in the sense would have to refer to a sex change.

And I'm loving Chaser's suggestions. Personally, though, I'm still stuck on wondering where the hell all these terms came from I the first place.

And there are futanari with balls and futanari with no vagina. Futanari literally translates to "to be of two kinds" and is used to describe anyone with both male and female traits. There is another term, being Newhalf, that is used for balls and no vagina but it is actually supposed to refer to trans people. However, the sites that enforce the term also follow a similar TWYS policy and outside information isn't taken into account when making the distinction between newhalf and futa.


I don't think using trans* would help, because not only does this reference the identified gender of a character instead of the displayed sex, but also that there are simply too many characters that were essentially born with a non-binary body.
If we would make this change I'd give it a whooping two weeks before someone comes in and complains that their character isn't trans or doesn't identify as trans; as such we'd just be swapping one set of problems against another without having a solution everybody benefits from.

Just for the record, I am absolutely not against using better sounding terms, one of my favorites so far is "vagentlemen" as a substitute for cuntboys, but sadly they didn't have any ideas for dickgirls.

Kida
Member
1 year ago
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Date: September 21, 2013

I personally preferred the suggestions brought up in forum #140749

While the terms may not have been used as slurs/insults, they still feel rather vulgar to most. Good to know the administration is open to feedback so long as good alternatives are proposed (I don't think trans* is a good alternative for reasons stated here).

treos
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1 year ago
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NotMeNotYou said:
but also that there are simply too many characters that were essentially born with a non-binary body.

right, and even irl i'm pretty sure it's possible to be born as a cuntboy or dickgirl (aka shemale). it probably wouldn't be accurate to assume such people are trans based solely on appearance alone.

If we would make this change I'd give it a whooping two weeks before someone comes in and complains that their character isn't trans or doesn't identify as trans; as such we'd just be swapping one set of problems against another without having a solution everybody benefits from.

it'd also likely lead to takedowns. i mean, we already know some artists can be set off by the smallest things sometimes. this would be asking for them to issue takedowns.

see my post in the mindfuck thread for my opinion on the gender thing (and a wtf list) if interested.


GDelscribe said:
To be fair it would probably be easier to avoid gender and sex tags outright if possible.

To clarify, this offhand statement means aliasing female, male, herm, intersex, cuntboy, and dickgirl to invalid_tag right? If so, this statement summarizes the thread for me by taking a system that works reasonably well and proposing the worst possible solution. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

The only other way I can interpret this comment is that you want to broaden the definition of ambiguous_gender.

The good news is that if we decided to alias terms like cuntboy to a less offensive term like vagentlemen, search links and blacklists with cuntboy in them will not break. While the tags list will become more politically correct on the surface, cuntboy and dickgirl will thus never really be defeated.

GDelscribe said:
You wouldnt tag a black skinned human with the N word. Right? Same reason we dont use the term "ebony" anymore.

We should proactively alias the N-word to dark_skin (I'm not saying this to be a smartass, I just don't want to be the one to type it in the suggest box.


GDelscribe said:
I know this has come up countless times probably but its a problem. A big one honestly and the fact that the community is still using terms like Dickgirl and Cuntboy (really?) In this day and age is kinda apalling.

What we need are tags that are still straight and to the point falling under the twys guidelines.

Id suggested transboy (to replace cuntboy) and transgirl (and replace dickgirl) but was shot down by the previous admin under the principles of "tag what you know."
We know however for a fact that this site runs on "Tag what you see" rules and for the mostpart if a character is gender bent to have those different/extra parts its safe to say they fall under the umbrella of what you would call transgender as after all that simply means anything that is not the birth or creation assigned gender.

Its 2016. We need to move on from these outdated insulting terms.

Transgirl would replace dickgirl. Usage is the same as the current dickgirl wiki entry. A character with boobs and an otherwise female ish body and a penis+balls.

Intersex should replace any instance of the term futanari if it hasnt already as futanari specifically refers to female gwnitals where the clitoris has been replaced with a penis.

Transboy would replace cuntboy for the same reasons as above. An overall male body with no breasts and a vulva/vagina.

Herm is still an applicable term and refers to characters with both sets of genitals. A penis, balls and a vagina/vulva.

If anyone has any LEGITIMATE problems with this please raise them in a civil manner.

But you can be a cis male with a vagina. :v


penis on girl it a dickgirl vagina on man it a cuntboy.

there's nothing transgendered about it. The character can just be someone who was born physically female for their entire body except for their Penis.

Clawdragons
Privileged
1 year ago

NotMeNotYou said:
Just for the record, I am absolutely not against using better sounding terms, one of my favorites so far is "vagentlemen" as a substitute for cuntboys, but sadly they didn't have any ideas for dickgirls.

Phallady?


PhallusFantasy said:
But you can be a cis male with a vagina. :v

Wut?

You mean like someone who is born male, gets a sex change but still identifies as male?


How about we change the "redneck" tag to "Caucasian American Ruralite." Boy, my feelings sure are hurt when someone uses that R word. Hell that's worse than someone being called a nigger. I think I hear a safe space calling.
/Sarcasm

In all reality though, I use words that would never fly on this site on a daily basis.


TruckNutz said:
How about we change the "redneck" tag to "Caucasian American Ruralite." Boy, my feelings sure are hurt when someone uses that R word. Hell that's worse than someone being called a nigger. I think I hear a safe space calling.
/Sarcasm

In all reality though, I use words that would never fly on this site on a daily basis.

I use words you shouldn't use in real life in real life :p


Clawdragons said:
Phallady?

Sounds too close to "fallacy," might offend somebody.

>.>